Why believe in God at all?

[nobspeople]

The obvious, selfish answer is 'to get into heaven'. But why else? Why should one believe in god? A god that plays aloof, many times allows the bed to prosper while the good suffer; a god that can create the whole of everything yet needs your money for his churches and spreading his word; a god that allowed the whole species to fall into sin right off the bat; a god that required himself/his son/himself to live and 'die' as a sacrifice to cover the sins of his creation - sins which he allowed; a god that allows 'wolves' into his flock to guide his 'sheep'; a god that won't allow himself to be proven and, instead, relies on faith - faith of flawed creatures - then allows eternal damnation (again, according to some) for not having enough faith; a god that allows his own disciples to argue amongst themselves over, many times, small, ambiguous things; a god that couldn't even write his own story; a god that seems to favor some over others; a god that can't be fully understood. And so on.
What benefits, outside of heaven, does God give that no one or nothing else gives?

[JehovahsWitness]

that the meaning of the word "generation" is flexible and can change meaning so as to not conflict with the ever shrinking prospect of the end of all war, suffering, sickness, etc. happening while anyone born in 1914 or before is still alive.

How do you respond to that claim?

My response is, we make mistakes and we change our minds on a wide variety of doctrinal issues including but not restricted to our understanding of last day prophecies. That is a documented part of the history of our faith. Anyone for whom that is problematic should probably not become one of Jehovahs Witnesses.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS

Should JWs be criticized for recognising their errors [back peddling]when this became evident?
viewtopic.php?p=1044924#p1044924

Why are Jehovah's Witnesses delighted when their organisation changes their beliefs?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p951631

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Charles Taze Russell was wrong on certain biblical points?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p864789

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DOCTRINAL CHANGES and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

[Diagoras]

[Replying to brunumb in post #31]

I've ordered that book: "The Scout Mindset" by Julia Galef. It looks very interesting. It will add to my collection of similar books about improving one's critical thinking skills. The first one I bought, "Irrationality" by Stuart Sutherland (Penguin, 1992) had recommendations from such luminaries as Oliver Sacks and Richard Dawkins. I dip into it semi-regularly, and when I got it down from the shelf just now, found a bookmark in it that quotes Sir Francis Bacon:

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things else to support and agree with it.

I can quite see why you provided the reference, many thanks for putting me on to the book.

[JehovahsWitness]

For your claim about a "composite sign of the end" to have much weight, you must see that any talk about "generations" needs to be much more specific ...

Jesus prophecy allows us to calculate which generation will see the beginning and the end of the last days, he also set a limit on how specific one can be as to its conclusion.





JW


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How do Jehovahs arrive at 1914 being a pivotal year in bible chronology?
viewtopic.php?p=891124#p891124

how long is a "biblical" generation ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p898902

Is it possible to pinpoint exactly when this present system will be destroyed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 23#p891423

How specific can we be regarding end time prophecies? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1047971#p1047971

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , 1914 and ...THE GENERATION

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #40]

Did I say "who were alive in 1914"?

Not verbatum, but you said:

The composite sign of the end can apply to no other "generation" but that if the year 1914.

Assuming that "if" was a typo and should have been "of", this statement implies (along with some of the links you provided) that "generation" referred to people who were alive in 1914 and would live to see this forecasted very big event take place. The link in post 28 also suggests that this was the original intention, but that more recently the meaning of "generation" has been altered to possibly mean not only people who were born before 1914, but people born later who shared even part a lifespan with a pre-1914 person (thereby extending the time period for the big event to occur).

What, exactly, is your definition of "generation" as you quoted above relative to 1914? I'm curious on the rough time frame for this predicted monumental event as seen by JWs. Is it potentially only decades away (or even sooner), or is it some indeterminate time that can be adjusted based on reinterpretations or other events?

[JehovahsWitness]

What, exactly, is your definition of "generation" ....?

Definition of GENERATION
1 a : a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor
b : a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously the younger generation
c : a group of individuals having contemporaneously* a status (such as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period
d : a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generation

contemporaneous: Existing, occurring, or originating during the same time



FURTHER READING
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... genea.html





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What, exactly, is the definition of a "generation" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1047976#p1047976

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How long is a "biblical" generation ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p898902

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , THE LAST DAYS and ...THE GENERATION

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #44]

Jesus prophecy allows us to calculate which generation will see the beginning and the end of the last days, he also set a limit on how specific one can be as to its conclusion.

This came in as I was typing my last response so I'll add a quick additional question. The statement above seems to further suggest that JWs believe the time frame for the "last days" can be pinpointed to within about a couple of human lifetimes (if generations overlapping those born before 1914 are included). So all that is needed to estimate an end time frame is to choose a beginning, which I would infer to be 1914 given the links you have provided in your posts. Adding 160 years to 1914 gives 2074 ... only 53 years from now. Would you argue that the big event predicted will have occurred by that time frame, ballpark?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #46]

contemporaneous: Existing, occurring, or originating during the same time

OK .... I think that answers my question in post 44. Sometime between now and about 2074 (or so) the big event should occur. I won't be around to witness it unless it happens in probably the next 20 years or so, but I expect my grandchildren will be reading about new predictions of when the "end times" will happen when they are my age.

[JehovahsWitness]

Adding 160 years to 1914 gives 2074 ... only 53 years from now. Would you argue that the big event predicted will have occurred by that time frame, ballpark?

Firstly according to our bible understanding, that generation isnt one BORN in 1914 , it would be the generation that witnessed and understood the spiritual significance of the events of that year. Thus logically they would be born quite a number of years before.

Further, Jesus did not say as the last of that generation dies...ie the outer limit of what is possible, the end would come. He said "this generation" would see all the predicted events. Thus while technically it might be possible the end of this system is so far away, it goes somewhat goes agajnst the spirit of not the letter of what he was saying.

To illustrate : If a father assured his daughter "Dont worry I'll be at your party!" He may have kept his word if he arrives as the last guest was putting on her coat to leave at the end but is that really what his assurance wanted the child to understand? Would it not rather that he (the father) would be there to witness and participate in the events?

There is no reason to believe Jesus will arrive as the last of the oldest of that "generation" is leaving yhe earthly scene, but rather during the main events prophecies to which the generation would be active participants.

ARE JEHOVAHS WITNESS NOW READY TO PREDICT THE DAY AND THE HOUR?

That said, since Jesus already said it would not be possible to pinpoint the end with specificity, I'm sure you are not attempting to get me to do the very thing Jehovah's Witnesses have been attacked for doing in the past and attach a specific year to the end of this system of things. Suffice it to say that if the end came tomorrow, no principle of the end time prophecies will be violated.

- The specific year 1914 marked the end of what the bible calls "the gentile times" and the beginning of the final countdown to Armageddon.

- The period between 1914 and "the end" is specifically one generation (as per a standard definition of contemporaries) born well before that year.

- It would violate the spirit of Jesus words to expect the end at the extreme outside limit of that generational period(say of 153 years) .

- Jehovahs Witnesses have learnt from past mistakes and will not provide a specific date or even year since Jesus said nobody would know the exact "day and the hour". We can identify the generation and can make some reasonable assumptions about the timeframe but that will have to be enough

Regards,

JW

[Purple Knight]

The obvious, selfish answer is 'to get into heaven'. But why else?

Well, if it's true. True things don't need reasons to be believed.

As you point out, however, God remains aloof. If he does exist, he's given me no reason to believe in him, so I'm not going to. Now, if it's about being right by chance, you could say, believe in God anyway, so you can be right if he does exist. But then, why should I believe in an omnipotent Jew when the right answer might be to believe in a flying spaghetti monster?

If it's about winning this god lottery, there's no way to do that, as there are infinite possible gods, so my odds of winning are zero.

I don't play if my odds of winning are zero.

Now, what if it's not a lottery and it's not about guessing the right answer? Well, then perhaps I can at least do something. And I do try. I do spend a lot of my time thinking about what it means to be a good person and why. I try to follow through. If it's about that then it doesn't matter if god exists or not and even if he does exist, it doesn't matter whether he's an omnipotent Jew or whether he's the Great Queen Spider or whether he's the flying Spaghetti Monster.

Suffice it to say that if the end came tomorrow, no principle of the end time prophecies will be violated.

This may seem like a stupid question, buuut...

How do you know it didn't already happen?

[brunumb]

True things don't need reasons to be believed.

I don't believe that's true.

If you know that something is true, whatever imparted that knowledge to you constitutes the reason to believe that it is true. If you don't know that something is true, then you will need to have compelling reasons in order to believe that it is true.