The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[myth-one.com]

You changed the subject. This doesn't answer my question. Does the death of Jesus prove that he was not meant to live forever? Because you said of A&E, "By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever."

Is Jesus alive or dead today as in right this moment?

No human is designed to live forever, including Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve have suffered their first death and are resting in their graves awaiting resurrection.

Jesus suffered His appointed first death, rested in the tomb three days, then was resurrected as a man.

Having successfully completed His mission as a man, about 40 days later He was seen being carried into heaven:

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

But He could not have entered Heaven as a man, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Since His reason for living has been successfully completed, there is no longer any reason for the man Jesus to exist.

Yet Jesus still is alive as a spirit creature right? Will this spirit live forever?

Actually, anyone can look into the eyes of Jesus any day of the week.

Imagine holding a frail, starving, neglected, unwanted child or other animal in your arms. He is sick, dirty, has skinny arms and legs, with a bloated stomach from malnutrition, and stares pleadingly into your eyes. At that moment he knows you care for and love him and you sense that. That moment has value that surely surpasses all the money, cars, boats, and every other possessions that we believe brings us happiness.

I've never been able to find the words to explain that feeling. Things seemed brighter, totally calmed, totally focused on one thing, free at last, . . . whatever. But I'm not one who enjoys not being able to understand things, so I stored that question in the back my mind.

Years later the explanation came to me upon reading the Book of Matthew:

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily, I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I was looking into the eyes of Jesus at that moment. I'm a lucky guy.

So yes, Jesus certainly "exists" now and forever. But as to how all that kind of thing works, I do not know.

I do take comfort in that the scriptures state that we cannot understand the spiritual world:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known.

My ignorance still bothers me a little, but it does allow me to look forward to that tremendous moment!

I live in a state which borders Mexico. Desperate people wanting to find safety and a better life for their family and children cross the border on a daily basis.

So opportunities to see Jesus abound!

Thank you, Lord!

[2timothy316]

You changed the subject. This doesn't answer my question. Does the death of Jesus prove that he was not meant to live forever? Because you said of A&E, "By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever."

Is Jesus alive or dead today as in right this moment?

No human is designed to live forever, including Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve have suffered their first death and are resting in their graves awaiting resurrection.

Jesus suffered His appointed first death, rested in the tomb three days, then was resurrected as a man.

Having successfully completed His mission as a man, about 40 days later He was seen being carried into heaven:

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

But He could not have entered Heaven as a man, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Since His reason for living has been successfully completed, there is no longer any reason for the man Jesus to exist.

Yet Jesus still is alive as a spirit creature right? Will this spirit live forever?

Actually, anyone can look into the eyes of Jesus any day of the week.

Imagine holding a frail, starving, neglected, unwanted child or other animal in your arms. He is sick, dirty, has skinny arms and legs, with a bloated stomach from malnutrition, and stares pleadingly into your eyes. At that moment he knows you care for and love him and you sense that. That moment has value that surely surpasses all the money, cars, boats, and every other possessions that we believe brings us happiness.

I've never been able to find the words to explain that feeling. Things seemed brighter, totally calmed, totally focused on one thing, free at last, . . . whatever. But I'm not one who enjoys not being able to understand things, so I stored that question in the back my mind.

Years later the explanation came to me upon reading the Book of Matthew:

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily, I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I was looking into the eyes of Jesus at that moment. I'm a lucky guy.

So yes, Jesus certainly "exists" now and forever. But as to how all that kind of thing works, I do not know.

I do take comfort in that the scriptures state that we cannot understand the spiritual world:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known.

My ignorance still bothers me a little, but it does allow me to look forward to that tremendous moment!

I live in a state which borders Mexico. Desperate people wanting to find safety and a better life for their family and children cross the border on a daily basis.

So opportunities to see Jesus abound!

Thank you, Lord!

So let rethink post #164 where you said, 'by dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever'. Yet Jesus exists now and forever, but he died and was dead for 3 days. How can he still exist forever even though he died? Shouldn't his death prove that he was not created to live forever? Perhaps you want to clarify post #164?

[myth-one.com]

So let rethink post #164 where you said, 'by dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever'. Yet Jesus exists now and forever, but he died and was dead for 3 days. How can he still exist forever even though he died? Shouldn't his death prove that he was not created to live forever? Perhaps you want to clarify post #164?

Every human is appointed to die their first death, so no human was created to live forever. The Bible states that the Word was made flesh for the specific purpose of dying. Jesus does not live today as a human.

What's wrong with that?

[JehovahsWitness]

When the last living human is born again of the Spirit or cast into the lake of fire, death and hell (the grave) will no longer exist ....

EXACTLY so... being cast into the lake of fire symbolizes no longer existing !



THE DEATH OF DEATH!


DEATH is thrown into the lake. Death cannot suffer physical damage -- as it is not physical being, but a condition. In what sense was DEATH thrown into a lake? Obviously it is a métaphor that death would cease to exist. Forever.

Thus being thrown into the lake of fire means: to cease to exist forever.

• DEATH is thrown into the lake of fire = it ceases to exist forever.

• The FALSE PROPHET is thrown into the lake of fire = he ceases to exist forever.

• The HELL (hades) is thrown into the lake of fire = it ceases to exist forever.

• The incorrigibly wicked (people) are thrown into the lake of fire = they cease to exist forever.

• SATAN the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire = he ceases to exist forever.

L.O.G.I.C

[myth-one.com]

THE DEATH OF DEATH!

DEATH is thrown into the lake. Death cannot suffer physical damage -- as it is not physical being, but a condition. In what sense was DEATH thrown into a lake? Obviously it is a métaphor that death would cease to exist. Forever.

That's correct.

Thus being thrown into the lake of fire means: to cease to exist forever.

That's not totally correct. Only those things which which can cease to exist will cease to exist forever when cast into the lake of fire!

You have a problem with the immortal stuff.

• SATAN the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire = he ceases to exist forever.

Where is your biblical proof for that statement?

My Bibles state the exact opposite -- that the devil will be cast into hell and be tormented day and night for ever and ever:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And repeating your claim over & over will not change that fact.

Being tormented day & night for ever and ever is not the same as ceasing to exist.

Do you agree?

[JehovahsWitness]

Only those things which which can cease to exist will cease to exist forever when cast into the lake of fire!

You have yet to prove that SATAN is not one of those things that can cease to exist

You have a problem with the immortal stuff.

You have yet to prove that Satan ( is "immortal stuff").


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

• SATAN the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire = he ceases to exist forever.

Where is your biblical proof for that statement?

ROMANS 16:20

For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.

GENESIS 3:15b

....He will crush your [Satan's]head, and you will strike him in the heel.

HEBREWS 2:14

Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN THE DEVIL , THE LAKE OF FIRE and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[JehovahsWitness]

TORMENTED

The Greek word John wrote was (Basanisteos) and is related to th "basanistes". This is noun translated "torturer", "tormentor" or "JAILER". It is the same word (Basanistes) that is translated "Jailer" in Matthew 18:34 which speaks about a man thrown in jail, it reads:

"In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." -- New International Version (1984)

"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt" -- English Standard Version (2001)

So the word doesn't exclusivey refer to torture or torment but can refer to being confined or kept or restricted from movement (denied freedom); a fitting metaphor for being permanent kept in a state of perpetual non-existence.



"TORMENTED" (scroll down)
http://www.jehovah.to/exe/general/hell.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200304230916 ... l/hell.htm

Further reading
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... -fire.html



#QUESTIONS: How does "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever"?

Keeping in mind that Revelation is a symbolic book, it should be noted that it is not the" torment" that is said to continue forever (nor the FIRE that is said to continue forever) but the "SMOKE" continues forever and ever. Where does the smoke come from? Revelation curiously says the smoke comes (not from the fire) but from the torment. Obviously torment doesn't literally produce smoke, so what does the "smoke from the torment" mean?

Smoke is evidence that a fire is or HAS BEEN burning. Anyone that remembers the pictures from Ground Zero, after the September 11th terrorist attacks will recognise that smoke continues to rise as a testimony of a fire long after the actual fire itself has been extinguished.

Usually of course, after some days or months the smoke ceases to rise, but in a symbolic way eternal smoke from the torment is an everlasting testimony of an act of Divine destruction.



RELATED POSTS

Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p970945

Revelation 1:18, 6:8, Revelation 20:13, & 14 : What does the book of Revelation teach us about "HELL" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p971239

REV14:9 /20:10 What is the "lake of fire"/"the second death"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p337866

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GEHENNA , HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[myth-one.com]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How does "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever"?

The smoke for ever and ever is produced by the fire which lasts for ever and ever!

[2timothy316]

So let rethink post #164 where you said, 'by dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever'. Yet Jesus exists now and forever, but he died and was dead for 3 days. How can he still exist forever even though he died? Shouldn't his death prove that he was not created to live forever? Perhaps you want to clarify post #164?

Every human is appointed to die their first death, so no human was created to live forever. The Bible states that the Word was made flesh for the specific purpose of dying. Jesus does not live today as a human.

What's wrong with that?

You didn't specifically say human. You just said 'by dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever'. Yet Jesus lives right now proving that 'dying' doesn't mean a someone can't live forever.

Can a human live forever? Apparently they can according to the scriptures.
Isaiah 45:18 says the Earth was formed to be inhabited, Psalm 115:16 that says that the Earth God has given to men not angels and Psalm 37:29 says that the righteous will possess the Earth and will live forever on it. Are these scriptures lies?