A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #99]

As Aquinas said, we read the bible in light of reason not the other way around. So we read the bible with this truth in mind. God chooses based on knowing all our actions and not based on accidental properties, so if one's interpretation of the bible leads them to think God works based on accidental properties, then the interpretation is wrong.

So when the author said... "you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.", favor was not granted to a entire populous, based solely upon 'accidental properties'? Hmmm... Interesting.... Okay... Let's flesh this out, by placing the given "commands" into context...

"44 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 "If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigners clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves."

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It looks quite clear that special instructions are reserves for 'accidental properties'. AKA ---> Israelites.

Hmm... Your only defense here seems to be that God has not part of these instructions at all. Is this your position?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #101]

There is special treatment for the Israelites. For the reasons that many have said in this thread (not racism), such as Israel having a covenant with God, such as the promises and blessings that God gave to Abraham and to Abraham's household/children (that includes his children's children, etc). Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.


There are other benefits that God gives to Israel, such as protection from enemies, the promise of the Kingdom, prosperity; and there are extra requirements that Israel was supposed to meet as well.


Having a special and distinctive relationship (via a covenant/contract) is not unusual. I have a covenant (a marriage contract) with my husband. He has duties; I have duties... and those duties/benefits do not apply to anyone else outside our marriage covenant.



Peace again!

[POI]

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #101]

There is special treatment for the Israelites. For the reasons that many have said in this thread (not racism), such as Israel having a covenant with God, such as the promises and blessings that God gave to Abraham and to Abraham's household/children (that includes his children's children, etc). Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.


There are other benefits that God gives to Israel, such as protection from enemies, the promise of the Kingdom, prosperity; and there are extra requirements that Israel was supposed to meet as well.


Having a special and distinctive relationship (via a covenant/contract) is not unusual. I have a covenant (a marriage contract) with my husband. He has duties; I have duties... and those duties/benefits do not apply to anyone else outside our marriage covenant.



Peace again!

Your response demonstrates my point though... The point being that these stories look to be human inventions, because this is what humans might do. A universe creating god, who claims to love all would not place favor, based upon, as "AFG" stated, 'accidental properties".

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to POI in post #101]

There is special treatment for the Israelites. For the reasons that many have said in this thread (not racism), such as Israel having a covenant with God, such as the promises and blessings that God gave to Abraham and to Abraham's household/children (that includes his children's children, etc). Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.


There are other benefits that God gives to Israel, such as protection from enemies, the promise of the Kingdom, prosperity; and there are extra requirements that Israel was supposed to meet as well.


Having a special and distinctive relationship (via a covenant/contract) is not unusual. I have a covenant (a marriage contract) with my husband. He has duties; I have duties... and those duties/benefits do not apply to anyone else outside our marriage covenant.



Peace again!

Your response demonstrates my point though... The point being that these stories look to be human inventions, because this is what humans might do. A universe creating god, who claims to love all would not place favor, based upon, as "AFG" stated, 'accidental properties".

There is no accidental property.

And covenants (and things like it) can help us to understand our relationship with God and His Son; just as physical things can help us understand or get a sense of the spiritual reality/counterpart. Such as the Temple construction (very precise); but part of that construction shows how we are to approach God (the Most Holy)... only by coming through His Son (the Holy).

It would also be perfectly reasonable (and from love) that a Creator employ things that His creation (and certainly His own people) would be able to understand (such as covenants/marriage).


Peace again to you.

[brunumb]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #100]

Q: How can one tell if a particular interpretation of the Bible is the correct one?
A: If it agrees with my interpretation, then it is correct.

[1213]

...
Then why place favor to the Israelites entirely, in regards to the rules of 'slavery'? The only distinction, or distinguishing factor, is that they are Israelites.

Please explain how do you think God favors Jews in the slavery case?

[POI]

(In response to post 104) --- Okay. I did not want to have to go here, but you have left me no choice. I will now pick apart your prior response....

There is special treatment for the Israelites.

Yes. This is exactly my point. This is exactly what humans do. Being this is likely an Israelite invented religion, of course they will place favor towards their own.

For the reasons that many have said in this thread (not racism), such as Israel having a covenant with God,

I admit I may have been a bit sloppy with my OP question. But I doubt an all-knowing universe creating god, who is the ruler and law maker of everything would make a pack with a particular ethnicity, or with a particular group, based upon attributes they were merely born into...

Imagine a rescue team is sent to help free slaves. They arrive among a group of slaves. The rescue team says, "if you can demonstrate that you are an Israelite, I'm here to free you." If you are not an Israelite, then you are SOL". The others ask why they are not to be freed as well..? One of the rescuers reply, "well, long ago, an Israelite made a pack with so-and-so." The ones left, and not rescued, scratch their heads...

such as the promises and blessings that God gave to Abraham and to Abraham's household/children (that includes his children's children, etc).

Yes. So again, God is placing special favor, based upon 'accidental properties'. --> Their bloodline...

Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.

Why ONLY rescue Israelites from slavery? If God does not like slavery, rescue all. Again, we can refer to this 'god' favoring 'accidental properties'.

There are other benefits that God gives to Israel, such as protection from enemies, the promise of the Kingdom, prosperity; and there are extra requirements that Israel was supposed to meet as well.

I agree. And again, more examples of placing favor, based upon 'accidental properties'.

Having a special and distinctive relationship (via a covenant/contract) is not unusual.

I'm aware. Humans do it all the time. But an all perfect and all loving god...?

[POI]

...
Then why place favor to the Israelites entirely, in regards to the rules of 'slavery'? The only distinction, or distinguishing factor, is that they are Israelites.

Please explain how do you think God favors Jews in the slavery case?

From post 107:

(Tam) Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.

(POI) Why ONLY rescue Israelites from slavery? If God does not like slavery, rescue all. Again, we can refer to this 'god' favoring 'accidental properties'.

[tam]

Peace to you,

(In response to post 104) --- Okay. I did not want to have to go here, but you have left me no choice. I will now pick apart your prior response....

There is special treatment for the Israelites.

Yes. This is exactly my point. This is exactly what humans do. Being this is likely an Israelite invented religion, of course they will place favor towards their own.

Just because humans do something does not mean God cannot do it. It also does not mean that it is ALL that God does... (if you continue with the progression, all people are invited into that covenant people, from every tribe, nation, people and tongue).

For the reasons that many have said in this thread (not racism), such as Israel having a covenant with God,

I admit I may have been a bit sloppy with my OP question. But I doubt an all-knowing universe creating god, who is the ruler and law maker of everything would make a pack with a particular ethnicity, or with a particular group, based upon attributes they were merely born into...

Your belief has been noted.

But it has been explained to you more than once in this thread that this is not based upon mere 'accidental properties'. Nor is inheritance wrong (it would be wrong for someone to take away your inheritance - something that is yours by right. It would be wrong if you willed something that you earned to your children, and someone just took that away after you died. It would be wrong if a government decided not to honor the terms of a treaty with First Nations - a treaty that grants First Nations children certain rights - because those children were "merely born into" those nations).

So again, it is based upon faith, inheritance (something one tends to be born into), the promise to Abraham for his household/offspring, covenants (and you seem to forget that God made a covenant with the nation of Israel). Israel did not always show faith, but Abraham did always show faith (hearing, believing, AND obeying), and so the promises that God made to Abraham will be kept.

If God did not keep His promises, then how could anyone know to trust Him? A loving God would certainly keep His promises (if those promises come with conditions and the conditions are not met, then the promises need not be kept because they were conditional... but if the conditions were met, then the promises would be kept). We must be able to know that if God (and/or His Son) says something, He means what He says. So that if He (and His Son) say something, we can know it is true.

See also from this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=1097702#p1097702

viewtopic.php?p=1096608#p1096608

such as the promises and blessings that God gave to Abraham and to Abraham's household/children (that includes his children's children, etc).

Yes. So again, God is placing special favor, based upon 'accidental properties'. --> Their bloodline...

See above.

Even in the verses that you are referring to, God gives His reason that they are not to rule harshly over their fellow Israelite: He purchased the Israelites for Himself. They belong to Him. He just rescued them OUT of slavery.

Why ONLY rescue Israelites from slavery? If God does not like slavery, rescue all. Again, we can refer to this 'god' favoring 'accidental properties'.

See above. Also the following:

During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob.
Exodus 2:23, 24

There are other benefits that God gives to Israel, such as protection from enemies, the promise of the Kingdom, prosperity; and there are extra requirements that Israel was supposed to meet as well.

I agree. And again, more examples of placing favor, based upon 'accidental properties'.

See above.

Having a special and distinctive relationship (via a covenant/contract) is not unusual.

I'm aware. Humans do it all the time. But an all perfect and all loving god...?

I believe I already responded to you about this:

And covenants (and things like it) can help us to understand our relationship with God and His Son; just as physical things can help us understand or get a sense of the spiritual reality/counterpart. Such as the Temple construction (very precise); but part of that construction shows how we are to approach God (the Most Holy)... only by coming through His Son (the Holy).

It would also be perfectly reasonable (and from love) that a Creator employ things that His creation (and certainly His own people) would be able to understand (such as covenants/marriage).


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[POI]

1) Just because humans do something does not mean God cannot do it. 2) It also does not mean that it is ALL that God does... 3) (if you continue with the progression, all people are invited into that covenant people, from every tribe, nation, people and tongue).

1) Sure. It would depend on what it is... And in this case, god places favor, based upon 'accidental properties'. (i.e) If you are an Israelite, you are automatically in the club. You stating, "he doesn't base his decisions on accidental properties", means you agree with me. Meaning, such a god would not base his decisions upon "accidental properties." But He apparently does.... See answer 3).

2) I never made such a claim. This apparent God did many things. Some 'good', some 'bad', some 'strange', some inconsistent with logic, and maybe others.....

3) Sure, this is called the NT. Prior to Jesus, the 'members only' club, as it pertains to special favor, was for the Israelites. And you already agreed, when you stated, in post #102 --> "There is special treatment for the Israelites.".

But it has been explained to you more than once in this thread that this is not based upon mere 'accidental properties'. Nor is inheritance wrong (it would be wrong for someone to take away your inheritance - something that is yours by right. It would be wrong if you willed something that you earned to your children, and someone just took that away after you died. It would be wrong if a government decided not to honor the terms of a treaty with First Nations - a treaty that grants First Nations children certain rights - because those children were "merely born into" those nations).

So again, it is based upon faith, inheritance (something one tends to be born into), the promise to Abraham for his household/offspring, covenants (and you seem to forget that God made a covenant with the nation of Israel). Israel did not always show faith, but Abraham did always show faith (hearing, believing, AND obeying), and so the promises that God made to Abraham will be kept.

If God did not keep His promises, then how could anyone know to trust Him? A loving God would certainly keep His promises (if those promises come with conditions and the conditions are not met, then the promises need not be kept because they were conditional... but if the conditions were met, then the promises would be kept). We must be able to know that if God (and/or His Son) says something, He means what He says. So that if He (and His Son) say something, we can know it is true.

Such a God would not make such a 'promise'. This is more akin to something a human would do, not an omnibenevolent god. Please see answers 1) & 3) above.

Also, please acknowledge what I stated in my prior response:

Imagine a rescue team is sent to help free slaves. They arrive among a group of slaves. The rescue team says, "if you can demonstrate that you are an Israelite, I'm here to free you." If you are not an Israelite, then you are SOL". The others ask why they are not to be freed as well..? One of the rescuers reply, "well, long ago, an Israelite made a pack with so-and-so." The ones left, and not rescued, scratch their heads...

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I'll stop here....