Adam and Eve

[Woland]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I'd like this thread to remain in the TDD forum because of the discussion format I have in mind, but if a moderator believes its place is elsewhere I don't have any serious issues with its being moved.

Thank you.

-Woland

[JehovahsWitness]

Who made the rules? Who put the tree there? Who designed the tree? Where do the consequences of eating it come from?

#QUESTION: Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place?

A. Because life was not given unconditionally. Life was given subject to obedience to divine mandate. In order to establish that not only did Adam and Eve understand this but whether they agreed that this was only right and proper, God told them not to eat from one of the trees in the garden.

B. Further, the bible indicates God was fully aware that no society can exist without the recognition of authority. He would, as the Creator, be that authority since although man was created to understand what was good and bad, he wasn't created to decide for himself what is good or bad.

C. To give them an opportunity to determin their own destiny.

To illustrate: Suppose someone was told, you can go anywhere you like but they were only presented with one door to go through, would that be TRUE freedom? Only by being offered the freedom of more than one choice could that individual really consider their future wasn't predetermined.

Adam and Eve were given a choice, a life in submission to their creator or a future totally independent of his rules and obligations. Their freedom to make the above choice (as symbolised by the tree) would mean their real ability to determine their future.

Does the surgeon have the power to instantaneously fix the patient?

Faced with the Adamic rebellion God as Judge had one of two choices. He would either renounce on his initial mandate, ignoring the crime. Or punish Adam and Eve as pronounced.

Why didn't God just IGNORE the sin in Eden?

People sometimes ask why did God required a sacrifice? Why did he not either forgive and wipe the slate clean himself, overlooking or ignoring the consequences of the sin committed in Eden?

God knew that the existence and the order of the universe was dependent on all his subjects both recognising and accepting his rulership.

Faced with outright rebellion god could either continuously destory any individual questioning the justice of his methods (become a dictator) or lower his standards and sanction sin (become corrupt).

• To illustrate, a judge that systematically refuses to pass judgment according to the law (or simply changes the law to accomodate those that disregard it) can be rightfully viewed both as corrupt and responsible for the inevitable rise in crime (lack of respect for the law) that will result. The suffering that this would entail could be laid at his door and no system in reality could survive under these circumstances.

In Eden the law was laid, sin = death. God could not respect his perfect standards without extacting the punishment. Since all their offspring inherited this genetically imperfect state, they were all condemned to death. If a pregnant woman is put in jail, her baby cannot be born free.

FIXING THE PATIENT

While God could not respect divine standards and leave Adam and Eve unpunished, he could make arrangements to spare help their children. While the issues raised in Eden would demand thousands of years to be settled, issue that could not be ignored, he did promise in Eden a way out for the descenents of Adam and Eve, and that at great personal cost.

THE ISSUES IN EDEN - WHY THE WAIT

Why has God waited SO LONG to solve mankind's problems?

Imagine a young adult saying to his father that he wanted independence. The young person might actually not be ready to live away from home but would a loving parent FORCE his child to stay under his direction against that one's will? What if the Father permitted the child to go but dragged them back after a week or even a year? Forcing him back before he had the chance to establish himself, seek the work or education he wanted, work out his plans?

Mankind (through God's first children, Adam and Eve°, made a bid for total independence and self rule. If God is not going to be accused of tyranny logic demands he give the human family the time it needed to make all its scientific and social advances. Only after thousands of years of civilization man STILL fails to successfully govern the earth can God rightfully take back control. "I told you so" doesn't work until every althernative has been tried.

Further (audio text)






RELATED POSTS

Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=389911#p389911

Why pas the free in thé middle of the garde referred to as "The tree "of the knowlege of good and evil"?
viewtopic.php?p=849045#p849045

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, THE ORIGINAL SIN and ... THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[Woland]

Hello JehovasWitness,

I know that I asked a lot of questions, so let me narrow it down for you.
Here are the questions that I would most like answered.

Where do the consequences of eating it come from?
Do they have to be so violent and torturous?
Do they have to be formulated in a way that ultimately ends up hurting countless sentient beings for no other crime than being born?
Does any of this escape God's control?

If you had the power to effortlessly intervene and instantly save countless billions from suffering and death, wouldn't you?

If you didn't, would anyone call you "loving"?

As you can see, most of them require nothing more than a "yes/no" answer, and I'm not interested in anything else than your opinion/speculation/theology.
Of course, developed answers would be appreciated (and you're known for doing that, at least by copy-pasting things you've answered before, which I can accept), but short ones will suffice.

Who made the rules? Who put the tree there? Who designed the tree? Where do the consequences of eating it come from?

#QUESTION: Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place?

A. Because life was not given unconditionally. Life was given subject to obedience to divine mandate. In order to establish that not only did Adam and Eve understand this but whether they agreed that this was only right and proper, God told them not to eat from one of the trees in the garden.

B. Further, God was fully aware that no society can exist without the recognition of authority. He would, as the Creator, be that authority since although man was created to understand what was good and bad, he wasn't created to decide for himself what is good or bad.

C. To give them an opportunity to determin their own destiny.

I refer you to my questions above.

To illustrate: Suppose someone was told, you can go anywhere you like but they were only presented with one door to go through, would that be TRUE freedom? Only by being offered the freedom of more than one choice could that individual really consider their future wasn't predetermined.

Do you know that my previous post contained the sentence "Whenever you say "to illustrate", I absolutely know that there's a demonstrably irrelevant analogy coming" before I edited it out since I thought it was a bit harsh (though true)?

Well...

What does any of this have to do with death and suffering for billions of human beings?

EDIT: While I was writing this post, you added the second section to yours, with another "to illustrate" false analogy!
EDIT 2: And another! Look, it will be my pleasure to extensively explain to you why these are irrelevant if you'll please answer the questions at the top of my post here.

Adam and Eve were given a choice, a life in submission to their creator or a future totally independent of his rules and obligations. Their freedom to make the above choice (as symbolised by the tree) would mean their real ability to determine their future.

I am arguing for the needless cruelty of the whole ordeal and contrasting it to claims of "God=love", in case that wasn't clear enough.

These clarifications aren't relevant to my points.

-Woland

[JehovahsWitness]

If you had the power to effortlessly intervene and instantly save countless billions from suffering and death, wouldn't you? If you didn't, would anyone call you "loving"?

I would, unless my instant intervention would in the long term cause the death and suffering of more. Since God can repair any damage incurred by not instantly intervening in mankinds affairs, and since logically and omniscient God had infinite knowledge of issues we may not be fully aware of, we must ask if there could be good reason WHY he seems to be delaying and why indeed he allowed mankind to suffer the consequences of the Adamic rebellion.


# QUESTION: But why did God allow Adam and Eve to take such a suicidal path? Especially as it would affect their unborn children?
Because our fore parents had the RIGHT to do so, regardless of the consequences. To not allow them to reject him would deny them the freedom of self determination. If the car INSISTS on filling its tank with inappropriate fuel, why would people ask "why does the mechanic allow breakdown"

# QUESTION: But why doesn't god "repair the damage"?
The bible shows he will (Math 6: 9, 10), but before he steps in some basic issues raised in Eden that, if unaddressed will no doubt resurge, need to be settled.

Those issues are:

• *Does god have the RIGHT to insist on imposing his rulership.
  *Is mankind better off, happier and healthier without the 'connection to god' that he is insisting on?
  Just as a parent will allow his child to undergoe a painful operation for its longterm good, God is allowing sufficient time for this question to be settled. Only then will he intervene.

Adam and Eve were given a choice, a life in submission to their creator or a future totally independent of his rules and obligations. Their freedom to make the above choice (as symbolised by the tree) would mean their real ability to determine their future.

I am arguing for the needless cruelty of the whole ordeal and contrasting it to claims of "God=love", in case that wasn't clear enough.-Woland

What "ordeal" would that be?

The "ordeal" of being created and living in Paradise? The ordeal of being tested? (an issue I have explained). The Ordeal of being obliged to submit to punishment? (explained) The ordeal of being expected to obey a rule they couldn't understand (explained) The Ordeal of the punishment not fitting the crime, (explained) ... The reason the children were effected by the sin of the parents ? (explained). The "ordeal" of having to wait instead of God instantly repairing the damaged (explained).

THE NEEDLESS CRUELTY

Who was cruel? Adam and Eve made a decision that was indeed cruel. It was effectively suicide and needlessly cruel for their offspring. We are in the final stages of God redressing the damage; when someone burns down their own house you don't blame the firemen for the "needless cruelty".

[Woland]

Hello JehovasWitness,

I would really appreciate it if you took a minute to address these.

Where do the consequences of eating it come from?
Do they have to be so violent and torturous?
Do they have to be formulated in a way that ultimately ends up hurting countless sentient beings for no other crime than being born?
Does any of this escape God's control?

The answers to these are crucial to the point I'm making, as you no doubt understand.

-Woland

[arian]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?

To be told you have free will is one thing, but the question is; 'did Adam understand what free-will meant'?

Babies are born with free will, they just don't have the capacity to exercise all of it. Adam was not created a baby, so he must have been a mature individual. He 'named' all the animals, so he was of a scientific mind. He was given orders to till the ground and maintain it in the Garden, so he was like any adult we know, understanding instructions. He was told to eat of any tree of the Garden he chose to, except the one in the midst of the Garden, .. lest he die.

God came and talked to Adam/Eve "in the cool of the day" where Adam could hear God walking in the garden. I understand this by reading where Jacob wrastled with a man who was God, or God was actually using a human body he made up to do this with Jacob.

Adam knew to name the animals, and he also knew he didn't have to do it all in one day. He exercised his free will by eating from this tree one day and that one the other. How many time he must have said to himself; 'I'm not going to maintain the Garden today, I'll do it tomorrow', so he must have lived as someone with free will.

2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?

It was taught to them by God himself. "To listen to God is good, to disobey is bad and you will die!" which I believe they understood perfectly. Why I say this?

Cain killed Abel.
Did Cain ask himself; "Boy, I wonder what would happen if I hit Abel with this rock a few times? Hmm.. I'm going to try it and see what happens?"

As someone mentioned here about Adam getting annoyed with Eve and thinking of killing her, so why didn't he? Did he hurt her? Did he have that option to hurt her?

I have many opportunities to do evil that I have never done before, but I refuse to do it because God asked me not to. I 'believe' what God says, that it is bad, and I obey.

I have said stupid things to my kids like; "Don't pick up that power saw again, or I'll kill you!" but I didn't mean it, nor did I even think of doing it. I even felt guilty saying it, but the option IS very real, only by exercising my free will, I refuse to do it.

So Adam and Eve did not have to take of the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' to know good and evil. When they did take of it, they hid themselves for they were ashamed and felt naked.

3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?

"Don't you know you are the Temple of God? If anyone destroys that Temple, him God will destroy"

God loves us, cares for us, protects us and it hurts Him when we hurt ourselves or each other. Knowing how much He loves us, it is an evil thing to commit sin and suffer for it. We feel the same way with our kids, especially if we see them abuse drugs and alcohol.

4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?

Transgression against God? What could we fragile mortal men do to transgress against our Creator? It is to disobey Him and the result is pain and suffering we cause ourselves, which in turn hurts Him. We refuse Him and make up other gods that are NOT gods at all. They are made of stone and wood and cannot speak nor help us, yet we make God jealous of our devotion to them.

God says; "I am jealous because I LOVE YOU, and you keep turning away from Me even after I chastise you. Fine, go ahead and keep hurting yourselves, you will only suffer more. Here I am trying to keep you safe and sound, and you keep doing evil, and this is transgression against Me also for I have created you. I told you what you shouldn't do, yet you keep disobeying Me and I have to watch you suffer.
When you cry out to Me, I come to your aid, but then you go right back to sinning again.

Hell:
If you want no part of Me, then I will turn away from you too. I created you to be my Children, to live with me throughout eternity, and I WILL keep my part of the deal, you will be eternal, only if you keep disobeying Me, after your body dies (original sin) you will spend eternity 'without Me'. Then you shall see what it is to be without my Love! I tell you, you will weep and gnash your teeth in darkness, for I will not be there to help you anymore. You will get what you worked so hard for; denying Me, your God and Father!"

5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?

No, not until Adam and Eve rebelled against God, and denied His instructions. Satan was more cunning then any other creature God has made, but as long as we are in obedience with, and remember what God taught us ('don't touch, lest yea die!') Satan has no power over us; "Resist the Devil and he will flee from you!"

6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Free will is what defines us as individuals, and sin (choose to do evil) is where we deny our Creator and do things that can harm us. We cannot harm God, only ourselves, which in turn hurts Him to see us suffer.

Man has denied God for so long that he thinks the laws against stealing, lying and committing adultery is just not fare. He says; "Sometimes it's O.K. to lie, or cheat or even steal if it is to help your starving family. Heck, if my family was starving and I found out that my neighbor had some food, I'd grab my gun and go over and take it from him to keep my family alive a little longer."

We became so selfish that we can make an excuse for just about any sin. Turning back to God will help us abstain from sin, which in turn puts the burden of taking care of us on God again;
"Which of you if your children ask for bread would throw them a stone, or if they ask for fish, cast them a serpent? If you who are evil know how to give good things to your children, how much more can your Father in heaven give to those who ask of Him?"

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I pray I have answered a few things for you?

[JohnPaul]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I'd like this thread to remain in the TDD forum because of the discussion format I have in mind, but if a moderator believes its place is elsewhere I don't have any serious issues with its being moved.

Thank you.

-Woland

The God described in the Bible is evil beyond belief. He is a primitive tribal war-god, vain, vindictive, cruel, arbitrary, boastful, demanding worship on threat of terrible punishment. It is impossible for me to imagine that anyone would ever describe such a God as loving! That is something made up later, and has no basis in the Bible.

The Garden of Eden story is only one of many examples of God's evil nature. Can you imagine a human father treating his children that way? Although they may have had adult bodies, under the circumstances they were certainly naive and inexperienced young children mentally. To deliberately place an attractive fruit tree in their midst, arbitrarily command them not to touch it, and then leave it unguarded was bad enough, but according to the doctrine of God's omniscience, as all-knowing, God certainly knew exactly what would happen, and obviously planned it that way, as an excuse to banish and punish his innocent children and all their descendants.

I could go on, quoting verse after evil verse, but I would soon begin ranting. This is enough for now!

John

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello JehovasWitness,

I would really appreciate it if you took a minute to address these.

Where do the consequences of eating it come from?
Do they have to be so violent and torturous?
Do they have to be formulated in a way that ultimately ends up hurting countless sentient beings for no other crime than being born?
Does any of this escape God's control?

The answers to these are crucial to the point I'm making, as you no doubt understand.

-Woland

And could you provide a post explaining the "point you are making", (incorporating the above points) in complete sentences?

Sincerely
JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Although they may have had adult bodies, under the circumstances they were certainly naive and inexperienced young children mentally.

Were Adam and Eve "set up for failure"?

Today all humans are imperfect meaning we have a natural inclination to disobey and are incapable of keeping God's law perfectly. Like a shopping trolly with a wonky leg, we "bear to the left" and constantly have to reajust our actions to stay in line with God's standards. Adam and Eve however had no such defect. In fact they had to "force" themselves to do wrong since scripture says they were created in His (God's) image. Adam and Eve where therefore like God himself in some ways and doing good was far from impossible.

Are perfect people capable of perfect obediance?

Until Jesus there would be no way to settle this question. All humans have been born imperfect (see above). Jesus however proved once and for all time that perfect obediance is indeed possible from a perfect human thus Adam and Eve were capable, had they been determined to, to stay loyal and obey the law. Furthermore, although we don't know how long Adam and Eve had been alive the bible indicates they lived for thousands of years, so reasonably they had had many our our "lifetimes" to get to know their creator (whose voice they could hear directly) and learn about his character and purpose.

Further faithful IMPERFECT individuals have since proved that even under the thread of toruture and death, disobedience to God is far from inevitable.


Some have argued that "natural curiousity" would have inevitably lead Adam and Eve to sin

As perfect adult humans with an inclination to do good, "curiosity" would no more have been a factor in breaking God's law as a normal human in good mental health would hack his own hand off to see how far the blood would squirt.

While humans are naturally "curious" and this is not a bad thing, we also have a natural inborn inner gauge of right or wrong (even in our imperfect state) which renders certain actions inacceptable regardless of how "curious" we might be. No court would accept "I killed the baby because I was *curious* as to what it's final screams would sound like" Curiosity is neither a defence for Adam and Eve's actions nor a reason to conclude the law was unreasonable.

Further, there is no indication that the tree was unique in its kind (it may well have been one pear/apple/orange tree in amongst many) and there is nothing in scripture that indicates Adam and Eve ate because they were "curious about what it would taste like.

The faithfulness of Jesus proves that a perfect human CAN overcome 'so called natural curiosity' when it conflicts with righteous standards and pass tests of loyalty.

Could Adam and Eve be expected NOT to believe a lie, since they had never heard one before?

Some argue that it is inevitable to believe a lie if you have never heard one before and thus God was unjust in punishing them. Is this logical? No. God Created humans with a natural inborn gauge of what is "right" and "wrong". Even children, with their limited life experience, know instinctively when they are being lied to. Adam and Eve were not children and were not imperfect, they had a perfect *inner voice*, intuition, spirituality... which would help them to examine a situation. For example, never having seen (or even heard a law against) murdering a child, most normal humans of sound mind would reject the invitation to kill a baby(and recoil at the thought), why? because we somehow "know" its bad.

When people lie, there is actually a physical reaction, our hearts beat faster, our breathing becomes irregular, we have a physical aversion to lying. When people lie TO us, there is usually (even in our IMperfect state) something that sits uncomfortably with it. True Satan was a "professional" but then they (Adam and Eve were perfect), they should reasonably have called on the information they had at their disposal - and indeed would have IF they had not been hearing what they wanted to hear.

Adam and Eve had enough information to reasonabley recognise they were being lied to. God had said "eating the fruit = bad"; Satan claimed "eating the fruit = good" both could not be true thus one was a lie. Who should they believe? Their Father, someone that had only given them good things, provided for them loved them and cared for them? or a "total stranger"? At the very least they should have taken consultation - Eve should have consulted her husband BEFORE making the decision and both should reasonably consulted with God.

On the same premise, the argument that we need to *see* and be familiar with EVIL before we can reasonably reject it is illogical.

The NAZI concentration camps were horrific evils on a scale never seen before. Gassing millions of innocent men, women and children and burning their bodies on an industrial scale is not something we need to see BEFORE we can reasonably be expected to identify it as such and reject it.

Adam and Eve's siding with Satan in rebellion cannot be "excused" by the fact that they had hitherto been "innocent" they had enough information and help to protect that purity and were therefore held entirely responsible for their actions.

For more details please go to other posts related to...

ORIGINAL SIN , ADAM and ... THE DECEPTION OF EVE

#Was God reasonable in testing Adam & Eve?

All societies have have laws; some of which carry the death penelty.

Modern day objections to the death penelty are justifiably linked with the inability of humans to accuratly judge if someone is guilty or not, assess true repentence and with the ethical problem of whether a human (under any circumstances) has the right to take another human's life.

Could Adam & Eve be expected to understand the command?

Of course; even a three-year old understands "don't touch" and can grasp if they DO touch they have done something wrong. Even a dog can understand the command "don't touch". Adam and Eve were fully capable of understanding the command, indeed, Eve repeated the command and the punishment verbatum when asked about it. They were both perfectly functional, fully grown adults and there is no reason that when God explained they were not to eat from a particular tree they were incapable of understanding him.



RELATED POSTS

Was Adam created with enough common sense to avoid sinning?
viewtopic.php?p=1084533#p1084533

the doctrine of God's omniscience, as all-knowing, God certainly knew exactly what would happen, and obviously planned it that way

QUESTION: Why would a god that knows everything have to create a test?

Being ABLE to know everything isn't the same as knowing everything any more than being able to cook is the same as cooking. If you can do something you still have to chose whether you WILL do it or not.

God can do anything, including chose NOT to see the outcome when humans are given a choice.

• Imagine a parent that CAN read his child's intimate diary, go into his room and go through all his personal belongings, listen in on his childs telephone conversations and any other manner of things to have the information he wants about him or her. Does this necessarily mean that parent WILL do all those things? He may well figure that, while still protecting his child, he will accord him a measure of privacy and in doing so show the child he has confidence in his ability to make good decisions.

In a similar way, God CAN know everything about us including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when we make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.

Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?


GOD IS LEARNING!

Humans live from moment to moment, God often choses not to look into their personal futures but instead choses to experience life *with* them in "real time", limiting his exercise of power and to a degree "living in the moment". This is because He always uses his powers and abilities in a fair and just way.

If it would have been unfair to see what Adam and Eve would do before they did it, God would not have chosen to do so. Thus God did not know for sure if Abraham would obey his request to sacrifice his son and it was similar when he commanded Adam and Eve not to touch a particular tree. When God asked Adam and Eve to obey him, he didn't know for sure if they would or they wouldn't.

QUESTION: Why did God put the tree there in the first place? For a similar reason countries have a national flag or requrie its citizens to "pledge alliegence to the flag;..." it symbolized their recognition of the ruling authority and that was important for order - no civilisation can survive for long without order and respect for law and authroity. Also it tested their loyalty and obedience to God and this test was necessary because their lives had not been given without conditions, they would get eternal life ONLY if they obeyed God and you cannot obey a law unless there is a law to obey.

God made up a law to see if they were worthy of being given eternal life in paradise or not.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, ORIGINAL SIN and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[Woland]

Hello JehovasWitness,

I would really appreciate it if you took a minute to address these.

Where do the consequences of eating it come from?
Do they have to be so violent and torturous?
Do they have to be formulated in a way that ultimately ends up hurting countless sentient beings for no other crime than being born?
Does any of this escape God's control?

The answers to these are crucial to the point I'm making, as you no doubt understand.

-Woland

And could you provide a post explaining the "point you are making", (incorporating the above points) in complete sentences?

Sincerely
JW

The point I'm making is that - as far as I can discern - you will not be able to answer all of these questions coherently with other common god-claims (God=love in this instance).

This is the third or fourth time that you skip over these questions.
Don't think I and others haven't noticed.

Ultimately, I would very much like to know what sort of theological excuses you have (if any) pertaining to explain why the result of eating the tree is the death penalty + suffering and obliteration (check: aren't those the JW beliefs?) for countless billions.

Does any of this escape God's power?

If not, then it's absolutely meaningless to call him "loving".
That's it in a nutshell.

Oh, you for some reason want to disobey me, the most perfect parent figure ever? Well, then you are going to suffer and die, I'm going to put you on a planet where you are liable to be killed at any moment from a wide variety of torturous sources, your wife will risk dying when she gives birth, and your descendants will suffer horribly, a bunch of them in vain since I'll obliterate them when they die. THEN, after all of this has happened and countless generations of humans have suffered and died abjectly, you'll know how much you really miss me, the most loving parent ever. All of this is somehow absolutely necessary. I want you to choose to live with or without me, but if you choose not to, torture and death it is for all of you!

Who does that?
Why do you even think that you can successfully exonerate such violent and torturous behavior?
What happens to your countless false analogies when you take the lethal, collective and torturous punishment into account?

Sounds beyond petty and vain, not to mention absurd to the highest degree.
Just what I would expect the ancient desert people to worship.

Honestly, the whole story is ridiculous.
Would YOU eat from a tree that you KNOW would undoubtedly doom you and your wife and cause that much death and suffering and make everyone into miserable sinning wretches when you were presently basking in God's awesomeness?
(Disclaimer: this is a side-question, and the answer to it doesn't matter. I'm just curious. Please focus on the issues I've repeatedly brought to the table above.)

This is as nonsensical as the Satan story.
The limited imagination of ancient desert-dwellers shows through.

-Woland

[Woland]

Hello JW,

Let me try to show you what I mean differently - how your analogies are used as fallacious rationalization tools to excuse things that are unpalatable for good reason.

Why has God waited SO LONG to solve mankind's problems?

Imagine a young adult saying to his father that he wanted independence. The young person might actually not be ready to live away from home but would a loving parent FORCE his child to stay under his direction against that one's will? What if the Father permitted the child to go but dragged them back after a week or even a year? Forcing him back before he had the chance to establish himself, seek the work or education he wanted, work out his plans?

Mankind (through God's first children, Adam and Eve°, made a bid for total independence and self rule. If God is not going to be accused of tyranny logic demands he give the human family the time it needed to make all its scientific and social advances. Only after thousands of years of civilization man STILL fails to successfully govern the earth can God rightfully take back control. "I told you so" doesn't work until every althernative has been tried.

->

The young person might actually not be ready to live away from home but would a loving parent FORCE his child to stay under his direction against that one's will? What if the Father permitted the child to go but dragged them back after a week or even a year?

What if the Father said: "if you leave me, the immediate and direct consequences act of you leaving me (which I have full control over and which presumably need not be if it were not for my willing them) will be death and suffering for you, your wife, and your children"?

I'd freak out if anyone told me something like that.
It would instantly validate the notion that they are a control-obsessed, jealous, petty, and violently psychopathic person.

->

What if the Father permitted the child to go but dragged them back after a week or even a year? Forcing him back before he had the chance to establish himself, seek the work or education he wanted, work out his plans?

Funny you mention that. I thought Adam had been dead for quite some time.

Mankind (through God's first children, Adam and Eve°, made a bid for total independence and self rule.

I do not recognize the authority of long-dead (and fictitious) figures to make such decisions for me, nor can I imagine that a loving omnipotent figure would ever logically tolerate such a situation of absurd and torturous collective punishment.

But then again, I can't at all imagine the scenario of a loving god testing his own children under pain of death, suffering and collective punishment.

It's too absurd for my taste, I like my words (like "love") to be coherent with my own experience, thank you very much.

If God is not going to be accused of tyranny logic demands he give the human family the time it needed to make all its scientific and social advances. Only after thousands of years of civilization man STILL fails to successfully govern the earth can God rightfully take back control. "I told you so" doesn't work until every althernative has been tried.

Well, we've been sort of held back now haven't we?
1. Short lifespan of humans. For the longest of times, this was incredibly short.
2. Extremely limited intelligence and general ignorance of humans.
3. Diseases, tornados, earthquakes, cancer, deadly animals, the elements.
4. Stringent requirements for continued life (i.e. sustenance, shelter, etc.)
5. Etc. Etc. Etc.

"Bid for independence" - right.
What an inappropriate euphemism.

The game seems a bit rigged, don't you think?

Speaking to me about tyranny when you believe all of this happened under the watch of an omnipotent being testing and threatening us is a bit rich. And I didn't even mention the deeds performed by "God" in the Bible yet.

IF your speculation about ultimate origins is somehow correct (I feel in a generous mood), then STILL, tyranny is too kind a word.

It's a double bind.

-Woland