God is not more merciful than most humans.

[DanieltheDragon]

In order for humans to forgive we go through an emotional state and move past the slight.

In order for God to forgive he has to have a ritualistic blood sacrifice involving torture of a pure being to forgive even the slightest of offenses.


How can God be all powerful if he is restricted in his ability to forgive?

How can God be all merciful if there is a sacrifice restriction on his mercy?

Why does God have a lower capacity of forgiveness than humans?

[1213]

Well he also cryptically said that before Abraham was, he is and that he'd destroy the Temple of God and in three days rebuild it.

One person, who may have been false witness claimed

"This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.'"
Matt. 26:60-61

Jesus himself said according to the Bible:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

...He is the moral equivalent of a dad who, seeing his son has messed up his room, cuts the boy's head off. (See Sodom and Gomorrah.)

I don’t see it that way.

[marco]

I feel confident you will "go strictly by what scripture says" but what in your view is the verse saying?

Exactly! What in my view is Scripture saying or what in your view is Scripture saying?

I see that it says that sons and future generations will be punished for their fathers' sins and I contend that most would read it that way. I also accept that you might extract some less obvious meaning, but then let us not say we are "following Scripture" when in fact we are following our own interpretation which, surely, is not infallible. Even the Pope is fallible when doing this. So our faith may be built on our awfully fragile view of what has been written, and this would explain why we are sometimes at variance with mainstream opinion. Go well.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 52 by marco]

Please see additional questions (post edited).

Thanks,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I also accept that you might extract some less obvious meaning

What do you mean by this? What is this "less obvious meaning" you seem to see in the text? Could you explain it?

JW

[marco]

I also accept that you might extract some less obvious meaning

What do you mean by this? What is this "less obvious meaning" you seem to see in the text? Could you explain it?

When I say that you might extract some less obvious meaning I mean you might take an interpretation different from the one I would take, one I see as obvious.

Thus:

" he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’

means "he does not leave the guilty unpunished but punishes the children for the sin of the parents."


In your earlier post you seemed not to accept what these words say and showed a post that suggested that children are not punished. So, to maintain both viewpoints, you would ascribe to the above quotation a meaning that is completely obscured to me. I cannot help you with a guess as to this interpretation. I hope this explains the apparent dilemma. Go well.

[Mike Boone]

I'm very grateful that America's criminal justice system is not modeled after that absurd idea of punishing someone unjustly for the offenses of others, which that Christian doctrine states as being God's divine way of running things.

# QUESTION: Does the bible advocate the punishing of someone unjustly for the offenses of others?

2 KINGS 14:6
[T]he Book of the Law: "Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

#QUESTION: But are we not being punished for the sins of Adam according to the bible theology?

It would be more accurate to say we are suffering the "consequences" of their action rather than we are being punished. When we say 'punish' the emphasis is on the action of the punish-ER. God is not punishing us for the actions of Adam and Eve, he punished them but their children would be effected by THEIR punishment.

To illustrate: If a father is irresponisible and crashes the car, the whole family, including any children that weren't even alive when it happened, suffer. The family may go for years without a car, the children may have to walk to school, worse, one of the children may have been injured and suffer permanent pain. If the father is convicted of reckless driving and jailed the children no longer have a father at home incurring long term financial, emotional and psychological consequences.

In a similar way, humans a suffering the consequences of our first parents "crashing the family car" as is were. Adam and Eve lost our original paradise home and incurred physical, emotional and spiritual damage that every human that subsequently came would suffer in one way or another. The only way to avoid that is ... to not be born human. And the only way to avoid passing on the effects of their error is to not have children.

The plan was that we all descended from one couple, so we would ultimately be 'family'. A great plan until the parents of that family deliberately did something that meant that all their children would be born "defective". Not the children's fault but their problem nonetheless.

#QUESTION Couldn't a omnipotent God have devised a way to limit the consequences of our first parents actions to themselves alone?

God can of course do anything, but "anything" is not always the right thing to do. Our creator limits himself to only acting in a way that is just, good and beneficial (see Deut 32: 4). Thus when Adam and Eve sinned the only options open to a God that holds himself to such standards are those that ensure the well being and balance of the a universe that depended on him demonstrating himself to be trustworthy and honest.


JW

Hi, Jehovahs Witness. I should apologize for incorrectly stating my idea. Because it was wrong of me to claim that Christian doctrine states that God has the habit of occasionally punishing someone (or punishing many people) unjustly for offenses committed by others. But rather, I should have written that various bible stories clearly show God punishing people for the actions of others who they have never even met.

Of course a perfect example for illustrating my point is the biblical account that claims that God had his Angel of Death kill every first born Egyptian, just because God was angry with the Pharaoh due to the Egyptian leader's refusal to accede to the demand delivered by Moses: "Let my people go." Certainly, most of those first born would have never met the Pharaoh, with many even living hundreds of miles from his palace.

Plus, I'd point out that the term "first born" covers people that span ages from a few seconds old, all the way into adulthood. If the slaughter of such a huge number of humans as every single first born Egyptian had actually occurred, there is no doubt that some of the older members of that group would have been friends with some of the Jews since they first played together as children. And there can be little doubt, that as adults, many of those first born Egyptians would have agreed that their Pharaoh should give the Jews their freedom.

A point I'm trying to make (in my own long-winded way) is that it would have been quite an idiotic act for a God to have all of the Egyptian first born killed when he would have had to have known that some of those first born people were in full agreement with him that the Jews should be freed.

Actually, anyone who kills people that agree with him certainly seems to have the mental problems of a psychopath. And instead of using a mass murder to get his way, wouldn't it have been a lot easier, as well as much more moral and just, for God to have simply put a curse on the Pharaoh, which could have involved something like making the Egyptian leader feel like his testicles were covered with burning oil, and would continue to feel that way until he released the Jews?

Gee guys, it sure seems that when any of us puts his or her mind to it, we can easily come up with smarter moves than the bone headed, and even immoral stunts that the God of the Old Testament was supposedly guilty of pulling off by using his magical powers. And that brings up a major problem for religious folks, because bible believing Christian ministers say that Jesus, himself, indicates in the New Testament that he believed that all of the Old Testament is true. Maybe Jesus just needed to see a good psychiatrist, and be put on some medication.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 56 by Mike Boone]

Of course a perfect example for illustrating my point is the biblical account that claims that God had his Angel of Death kill every first born Egyptian, just because God was angry with the Pharaoh due to the Egyptian leader's refusal to accede to the demand delivered by Moses: "Let my people go." Certainly, most of those first born would have never met the Pharaoh, with many even living hundreds of miles from his palace.

Don't forget that pharoah was doing what God wanted since Gid robbed him of free will and made him hold onto the Jewish slaves.
Exodus 7:1-6

1And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. 5The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 55 by marco]

Thank you so much, I will not trouble you any further with my "own benign interpretation on ... verses." I admit I do tend to analyse scriptures and come to what some (maybe not yourself) may see a absurd, obscure and pathetic conclusions. I won't address the issue as you have implied that whatever I write, should it not correspond to your own conclusion, will be contorted and unreasonable.

What I like about you is that you consistently and don't interpret scripture in any way, this means that you don't impose any interpretation at all on the words you read in the bible, perhaps I should follow your lead and I humbly beg your indulgence when I fail to do so.


Be well yourself,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

various bible stories clearly show God punishing people for the actions of others who they have never even met.

Hello,

I do believe I have already addressed the difference bewteen "punishment" and being obliged to suffer the consequences of somebody's else's actions (or bad decisions) as is often the case of dependent children.

Feel free to see the relevant points in my post linked below.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 932#837932

QUESTION: Did God "murder" the Egyptian firstborns?

The tyrannical regime the Hebrews were rebelling against had institutionalized infanticide, countless children were being killed, that along with racial oppression and the implied denial of basic human rights would even today be considered just cause for a civil or national uprising.

The civil struggle in Egypt was for the most was a non-violent disruption and distruction of the Egyptian infrastructure, through 9 consecutive manifestations. The Egyptian people were well aware of what was going on since these disruptive measure effected them all and the Hebrew envoy (Moses) publically annouced what they would be. Of the 9 manifestations (plagues) the only one that could possibly have threatened human life was was #7 and the Egyptians as well as the Hebrews were told how to protect themselves (in this case by remaining inside their houses).

A cruel God would have made no provision to make his point while protecting human (and animal). This was not the case in Egypt.

It was the same case for the 10th and final plague. Unlike in other civil wars, all individuals were given the opportunity to protect themselves and their children. Instructions where provided that anyone that put a bloodmark on their doorposts would be unaffected. After 9 plagues it would have been public knowledge what was going on, and the fact that a vast mixed company of non-Israelites eventually left the Egypt is testimony that many others put took the warning to heart and followed instructions to protect their children.

In short, there is no reason why a single Egyptian baby should have died. If because of parental negligence a toddler is allowed to wander into a high speed motorway and is killed; most reasonable people recognise the fault lays squarely at the feet of its parents who failed to protect their dependent child from danger. The bible account indicates that the Egyptians were given fair warning and any deaths therefore, sad as they were rest squarely at the feet of negligent parents.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 57 by DanieltheDragon]

QUESTION How did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?

ROMANS 9:16
"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: For this very cause I have let you remain, that in connection with you I may show my power, and that my name may be declared in all the earth.

God did not actually harden the heart of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh lost his free will making change impossible and his fate unavoidable. The bible often speaks about God "doing" things that he in fact allows or permits (1 Sam 4:3). Jehovah "hardened" the Egyptian kings heart in that he [YHWH] allowed Pharoah's stubborn character enough time to be revealed. Note the following commentaries on the subject:

Benson Commentary
Exodus 9:12. And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart ” Before he had hardened his own heart, and resisted the grace of God; and now God justly gave him up to his own heart's lusts, to strong delusions, permitting Satan to blind and harden him.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
God gave him up to judicial hardness of heart, to his own corruptions [...], so that whatever was said to him, or inflicted on him, made no impression to any purpose

source: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/9-12.htm

As with Pharaoh God can read the heart and someone's inclination towards bad (or good) beforehand but this does not mean they are incapable of changing. Take for example the case of Cain who killed his brother Abel. Even before this terrible act, God read his heart and saw that if he didn't change it would lead to disaster. What did God do? He tried to warn Cain of the badness he saw in his heart and help him to change.

Pharoah of Egypt, Esau and many others have ignored God warnings and followed an bad path, this was not predetermined but their individual decision and if "God saw it coming" like a parent that 'knows' his rebellious child will (if he doesn't change) end up in a bad situation, this does not mean it was beyond their power to change.


JW







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