God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.
3 But Joab replied to the king, May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?
4 The kings word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, Davids seer: 12 Go and tell David, This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.
14 David said to Gad, I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, Enough! Withdraw your hand. The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[JP Cusick]

Most of Christians that responded here believe the story literally.
Most of Christians in general believe the story literally.
The majority of Christians are "real fanatics" as you point out .
They take the stories not matter how bad and fantastical literally.
My arguments are with such Christians.

That means you only want the easy targets to torment.

That is not an honorable mission.

And you are not trying to tell them what is right - you are just trying to tear them down.

Q: Why cherry pick the bible? Why not denounce it all?

We do not throw out the right or the truth with the wrongs.

The Bible has lots of great and some fantastic stuff mixed in with a lot of confusion and nonsense - so the task is to "separate the wheat from the tares".

[alexxcJRO]

That means you only want the easy targets to torment.

That is not an honorable mission.

And you are not trying to tell them what is right - you are just trying to tear them down.

Q: Wait what?!!!:)))

I know you desperately want to make atheists look bad.

But please drop the straw-man, non-sequitur.

I am not tormenting anybody(only Yahweh is apparently tormenting forever billions of souls in the Lake of Fire).

I am just using logic to show the literal view of Bible which most Christian have is not tenable under scrutiny.

Plus I have several times debated the non-traditional, non-literal Christians in the past, including you.

As I remember you have left the threads and stopped replying in our every encounter.

The Bible has lots of great and some fantastic stuff mixed in with a lot of confusion and nonsense - so the task is to "separate the wheat from the tares".

The story of Jesus is pretty fantastical(as fantastical or more then Noahs story, Adam and Eves story, Jonass story, Samsons story): born of a virgin, he had magical powers(read people minds, walked on water, knew the future, levitated/flew in the sky, withered a tree on command) and ultimately the most fantastical: he resurrected from the dead.

The story of Jesus is pretty nonsensical too: God(Jesus) sacrifice himself to himself God(Yahweh) in order to be able to defeat sin/death and forgive the sins of sinners, situation of which he is the ultimately responsible for when he created the universe in which entropy is the driving factor.

Q: Do you believe the story about Jesus?(Yes/No question)

[Bust Nak]

Nonsensical, boring and irrelevant ramblings cuz of cognitive dissonance born out of desperation to save what cannot be saved.

Apparently the bias is making you unable to read.

Moderator Warning

Do not make personal remarks.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[JP Cusick]

I am just using logic to show the literal view of Bible which most Christian have is not tenable under scrutiny.

As I said - you take on the easy targets - and that is not an honorable mission.

And you are not trying to lead them into a better understanding - you are just trying to knock the people down.

As I remember you have left the threads and stopped replying in our every encounter.

I do not believe in babbling on and on, and especially when I give the answer and they ignore the answer and the truth.

One thread in particular is troubling, link HERE, as I gave the correct answer along with Bible references and details in my comment post #3, but they ignored the truth and instead continue babbling about their own nonsense for now 2 and a half months and 17 pages and 167 comments when the topic is already answered on page 1 comment #3.

So yes I stop when a discussion turns down the drain.

Q: Do you believe the story about Jesus?(Yes/No question)

Yes, I do.

There are some complications in the text and parts need to be correctly interpreted or translated, but the basic story I accept as true.

[1213]

....but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin. ...

One thing is unclear for me, how do you know who are innocent and who are not, please explain?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by 1213]

Read the Bible.

[alexxcJRO]

As I said - you take on the easy targets - and that is not an honorable mission.

And you are not trying to lead them into a better understanding - you are just trying to knock the people down.

Here evidence you are talking nonsense. Enjoy!

Here I have debated extensively with liamconnor(non-literal Christian):
viewtopic.php?t=32696&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
Here I have debated extensively with kayky(non-literal Christian):
viewtopic.php?t=32531&start=130
Here I have debated extensively with historia(non-literal Christian):
viewtopic.php?p=884330#884330
Here I have debated extensively with hoghead(non-literal Christian):
viewtopic.php?t=32294&postdays=0&postor ... &start=580

I do not believe in babbling on and on, and especially when I give the answer and they ignore the answer and the truth.

One thread in particular is troubling, link HERE, as I gave the correct answer along with Bible references and details in my comment post #3, but they ignored the truth and instead continue babbling about their own nonsense for now 2 and a half months and 17 pages and 167 comments when the topic is already answered on page 1 comment #3.

So yes I stop when a discussion turns down the drain.

Yeah right!!!:))))

We shall let readers decide this.

Here a few of our encounters:
viewtopic.php?t=32638&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
viewtopic.php?t=33171&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
viewtopic.php?p=876691#876691
viewtopic.php?p=872204#872204

Yes, I do.

There are some complications in the text and parts need to be correctly interpreted or translated, but the basic story I accept as true.

Lets not be so vague shall we?!!!

Please answer all this questions:

Q: Was Jesus born of a virgin? (Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus walked on water?(Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus read minds?(Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus knew the future?(Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus withered a tree on command?(Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus healed on the spot?(Yes/No question)
Q: Did Jesus come back to life after dying and rotting for three days?(Yes/No questions)
Q: Is Jesus divine (God or demigod)?(Yes/No question)
Q: Was any divine purpose behind Jesus dying on the cross?(Yes/No question) If yes which is that purpose?

[alexxcJRO]

....but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin. ...

One thing is unclear for me, how do you know who are innocent and who are not, please explain?

Small children, infants, the mentally impaired and animals do not have the rational faculties necessary to understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law.

Therefore logic dictates they cannot be held responsible for any wrong doing and therefore punished under any circumstances whatsoever.


Q: Do you think it is ok to punish an infant, make him suffer, kill him when he/she does understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law? (Yes/No question)

[JP Cusick]

I see the problem as taking the Bible far too literally.

Only real fanatics would interpret this text as it is literally translated into English, and then condemn God based on this.

One thing there is that God is not speaking Himself, as it is some prophet named Gad and even Gad is not the one writing the book of "2 Samuel", which means it is not second hand but at least a third hand account which means some parts of the story might be incomplete or inaccurate.

An honest Scholar would likely interpret this as "literally" being there was a plague at that time and the people blamed King David for the plague and thereafter the blame fell of God as the one who sent the plague, and the so called "plague" might have just been the measles or some other common virus which killed many people.

It also seems likely that the number of 70,000 is exaggerated unless they went around counting the dead, and the dispute with God in the first place was that they were NOT to count the fighting men, so counting the dead would seem risky indeed.

In verse 24 it says that the real sin was committed by the people of Israel, so it was not really against David, and so the punishment went accordingly to the same people.

The real Father God always tells the people to repent and to do right - but the people just keep rebelling back then as they still do today.

The reply above is the best answer to the OP.

After this the thread goes down the drain.

And to add spice to the dribble, the Bible never claims to be the "perfect inerrant word of God" and no where in the scriptures does it ever declare such concepts as "omnipotent" or "omniscient" or "omnibenevolent" as is said in the OP.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

I see the problem as taking the Bible far too literally.

Only real fanatics would interpret this text as it is literally translated into English, and then condemn God based on this.

One thing there is that God is not speaking Himself, as it is some prophet named Gad and even Gad is not the one writing the book of "2 Samuel", which means it is not second hand but at least a third hand account which means some parts of the story might be incomplete or inaccurate.

An honest Scholar would likely interpret this as "literally" being there was a plague at that time and the people blamed King David for the plague and thereafter the blame fell of God as the one who sent the plague, and the so called "plague" might have just been the measles or some other common virus which killed many people.

It also seems likely that the number of 70,000 is exaggerated unless they went around counting the dead, and the dispute with God in the first place was that they were NOT to count the fighting men, so counting the dead would seem risky indeed.

In verse 24 it says that the real sin was committed by the people of Israel, so it was not really against David, and so the punishment went accordingly to the same people.

The real Father God always tells the people to repent and to do right - but the people just keep rebelling back then as they still do today.

The reply above is the best answer to the OP.

After this the thread goes down the drain.

And to add spice to the dribble, the Bible never claims to be the "perfect inerrant word of God" and no where in the scriptures does it ever declare such concepts as "omnipotent" or "omniscient" or "omnibenevolent" as is said in the OP.

Rev.19
[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

For God to be omnipotent, He would also have to be omniscient. Otherwise He would be subject to making mistakes.

Acts 15:
[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psalm 139:
[16]Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Psalm 56:
[8]You have taken account of my wanderings; Put my tears in Your bottle. Are they not in Your book?

Psalm 40:
[7]Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. [8]I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart. (NAS)

But you can go ahead and diminish God's power if you want to. I'm sure He won't mind.