Christ's Crucifixion and Death

[rikuoamero]

According to Christianity, the man named Jesus Christ (believed by some Christians to be God incarnate) paid the ransom price for the rebellious sin of Adam and Eve. That with Christ's death, God is now able to forgive humanity.

I'd like to explore this. So let's picture the scene. Humanity exists in large numbers on a planet called Earth. God sends his son (or himself) in the personage of Jesus Christ, to walk and talk among crowds of Jews and Gentiles for a handful of years. Eventually, what he does annoys the orthodox Jewish priests, who arrest him, bring him before Pilate who says the priests can execute him if they want. Jesus is then taken to a hill where he is nailed to a piece of wood.

I'd like to ask Christians what exactly changes regarding God and humanity in the minute before Jesus is nailed to the cross, versus the minute after he is nailed. What changes before he takes his last breath, and after. What exactly has been done? All I can see is a man, innocent according to his supporters, being unjustly executed. In previous threads, I excoriated Christians who said they would not prevent the crucifixion and execution, who said they would be willing to benefit from it. So I'd like to ask - what exactly is happening here, in these key moments, these key seconds of time?
Did humanity change? Learn, grow? Did God?

EDIT: Please answer as though you and I are standing there in the crowd on that hill.

[JehovahsWitness]

Regardless of their imperfection the descendants of Adam should not have to suffer punishment for his actions.

Why are Adams children being punished for HIS Sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280


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How could an omniscient God not have known what the bad choices his creation would make?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#848314

Isn't God ultimately responsible since it was He who created intelligent beings?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 875#840875

Why did God have a law in the first place?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 911#389911

Was the Edenic Law absurd or unreasonable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

The Ransom [INDEX]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 731#946731

[JehovahsWitness]

HOW CAN THE DEATH OF ONE MAN COVER FOR THE SINS OF SO MANY?

♦ ANSWER Because a single act by one individual can have a dramatic effect on numerous others. For example, a skilled pilot might make a single wise decision and avoid an accident that would effect hundreds of people. In short, the number that benefit can be disproportionate to the benefactor. Winston Churchill once said "Never was so much owed by so many to so few", in the case of the ransom, the "so few" becomes "one".



RELATED POSTS

QUESTION How could Jesus' death be considered equal to Adam's sin of disobedience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 854#959854

Was the ransom invalidated because Jesus was rewarded for his faithfulness?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280

[JehovahsWitness]

If death is the consequence of our sins, then why do we also have to suffer for eternity in hell?

The teaching of eternal torture of an immortal soul is not a biblical teaching. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we don't believe in "hell".

RELATED POSTS

Does not the bible not refer to "hell"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p373876

Is hell hot?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 36#p876536

Did Jesus did not teach eternal suffering in hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 52#p844052

Is torturing the wicked eternally evidence of divine justice ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 48#p843948]

How long have Jehovah's Witnesses been exposing the lie of eternal torment in hellfire?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 24#p872424

[JehovahsWitness]

.. if someone gives you a cheque to pay off your mortgage and subsequently cancels the cheque, your mortgage has not been paid off

QUESTION Did Jesus resurrection effectively cancel the Ransom?

♦ANSWER No, the ransom price was the sacrifice of one human life, only by reclaiming life as a human could Jesus invalidate his sacrifice Jesus was resurrected as a SPIRIT, that is, Jesus was resurrected as an entirely different life form. So he never "cancelled the cheque" as it were, obedient mankind will be able to benefit from the value of the ransom value for as long as they need it!

That God, his father subsequently gave Jesus something of higher value is irrelevant, bar the fact that it is a testimony to the Father's love for his son and sense of justice.





JW





RELATED POSTS

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280

Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died in an accident?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 228#852228

Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had taken his own life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 847#909847

Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died of old age or disease ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 829#959829

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 29 by JehovahsWitness]

Adam was a perfect man; when he sinned (committed the crime of disobedience) he effectively sold his children into sin and death, since he carried in his loins the human race. His act of disobedience meant all his children would automatically be born imperfect and would inevitably sin. To save the children (Adam's descendants) a man equal to Adam would have to buy them back, only someone equal to what Adam was could do this, that is to say, a perfect human male.

This is just rhetoric. There is absolutely no reason for all Adam's children automatically being born imperfect and inevitably sinning. This is nothing more than a contrivance to try and spin some legitimacy out of an absurd scenario. To suggest that the solution is for God to have his cloned son killed somehow making things better takes the absurdity to a new level.

[John Human]

[Replying to post 29 by JehovahsWitness]

Adam was a perfect man; when he sinned (committed the crime of disobedience) he effectively sold his children into sin and death, since he carried in his loins the human race. His act of disobedience meant all his children would automatically be born imperfect and would inevitably sin. To save the children (Adam's descendants) a man equal to Adam would have to buy them back, only someone equal to what Adam was could do this, that is to say, a perfect human male.

This is just rhetoric. There is absolutely no reason for all Adam's children automatically being born imperfect and inevitably sinning. This is nothing more than a contrivance to try and spin some legitimacy out of an absurd scenario. To suggest that the solution is for God to have his cloned son killed somehow making things better takes the absurdity to a new level.

Um yes but... first of all, if Jesus was indeed the reincarnation of Adam (as hinted by Paul and affirmed elsewhere), then the myth starts to make some sort of sense: Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was payback for his personal error in the Garden. And if the sin ("eating of the tree") was not only disobedience but succumbing to sexual temptation, then our "participation" in original sin goes back before our birth to our conception, with parental lust part of the experience -- except for Mary, of course, whose sainted parents achieved an "immaculate conception," with no lust permeating the first moment of the newly-created zygote.

Please understand that I'm not trying to sell any of the above, just imagining its plausibility (within the Christian scheme of things) without buying into the divinity of Jesus Christ.

EDIT: For the evidence that orthodox Jews through the millenia (including Jesus Christ per the Bible) have accepted the idea of reincarnation, see this thread: viewtopic.php?t=35420

EDIT: And if Jesus was indeed believed by his followers to have been the reincarnation of Adam (once again, as implied by Paul), that put's Peter's credal statement that Jesus was the "son of God" in a new light: Who else was Adam's "father"?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 35 by brunumb]

I am presenting bible based beliefs.

DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH THAT ALL HUMANS ARE BORN IMPERFECT AND DESTINED TO SIN?

♦ANSWER Yes , the bible is quite clear on this point, human descendants of Adam are born imperfect and destined to sin ...

ROMANS 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

ECCLESIATES 7:20

For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.

1 JOHN 1:8

If we make the statement, “We have no sin,� we are misleading ourselves

....and this as a result of us all being the children of Adam.

ROMANS 5:12

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned+

JOB 14:4

Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!

PSAMLS 51:5


Look! I was born guilty of error, and my mother conceived me in sin

JW



RELATED POSTS


How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

What is"adamic" sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 958#909958

Why are Adams children being punished for HIS Sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 903#873903

Can someone that doesn't believe in the notion of sin, sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 439#893439

The Ransom [INDEX]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 731#946731


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 36 by John Human]

Um yes but... first of all, if Jesus was indeed the reincarnation of Adam (as hinted by Paul and affirmed elsewhere), then the myth starts to make some sort of sense: Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was payback for his personal error in the Garden.

That's a big if to start with. Not much of a hook to hang your hat on. That aside, the death of Jesus was hardly a sacrifice. When ordinary humans give their lives for others with no expectation of any reward or afterlife, that is a sacrifice. The death of Jesus was just a theatrical gesture at best.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 37 by JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH THAT ALL HUMANS ARE BORN IMPERFECT AND DESTINED TO SIN?

So what? The Bible doesn't not necessarily teach what is true. In any case, the death of Jesus still didn't really change anything. The situation is the same after the event as it was before the event. The fine print says that you have to believe the story before you get any alleged benefit. You also have to wonder why it took the omnipotent and omniscient Yahweh so long after the original misdemeanor to come up with his absurd solution to the problem.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 29 by JehovahsWitness]

What happens to your whole ransom theology if a singular "Adam" never existed? Or never existed as the first man in the Garden, as told in Genesis?

Seems a whole lot of theology hinges on a myth. A shaky foundation Paul used to build his theology of Christ as the "2nd Adam". or so it seems.

Unless, of course, Christ's death redeems from actual (as opposed to original) sin. And to circle back to the OP, how does that happen? Please expain, without resort to your "ransom theology" paradigm, without alluding to Christ as the "2nd Adam" or to the myth of Adam and Eve and the Serpent in the Garden.

And in your own words, without any links or youtubes.

Can you?