Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

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Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #1

Post by Skeptical »

I have a few questions about JWs' history concerning their anointed class. But these questions are open not just to JWs, but to anyone who has knowledge about their anointed class. Therefore, what is JWs' belief regarding their anointed class and how do they know from scripture that there is an anointed class and an earthly class of Christians? Because from what I know, JWs wasn't aware of this concept until the year 1935. Also, there was supposed to have been the belief that only 144,000 Christians were of the anointed class, but when their organization outgrew that number, they were supposed to have had an epiphany that there were two classes: a 144,000 anointed heavenly class and a numberless class of earth-bound Christian who were supposed to live in a new system on earth.

Also, from what I recall about their history, there was supposed to be some sort of calculations about how many anointed 'real' Christians existed in the first century and then all the way up to the latter part of the 19th century/the late 1800s. And at first that belief was pretty set until as I had already mentioned, the numbers started to grow in the year 1935. But then for a while, JWs had the belief that the number for the anointed class would continue to shrink while the number of the earthly Christians (or the great crowd as they are also called) continued to grow. Plus, JWs' annual celebration of the Memorial (of Jesus' death) would also serve as a count as to how many of the anointed class still existed on earth based upon who partook of the emblems during that celebration. And for a while, those numbers were shrinking because it was said that those anointed JWs from the early 1900s were slowly dying off.

However, as time went on, I think that it was in the 1990s that the number of the Memorial partakers started to increase and which threw a lot of people off as far as that being a barometer of the anointed class dying off and an indicator of how close the end of the world was. But then I think in the early 2000s, there was a big shift in doctrine and that all the anointed class around the world who were also thought of as the faithful and discreet slave class were no longer considered the faithful and discreet slave class, and only a small group of anointed men (and no women) in New York were only classified as being the faithful and discreet slave class.

Also, the new interpretation of the faithful and discreet slave class no longer had the description of very elderly anointed members from the early 1900s who had all but died off, but now younger men in the 50s and 60s were interpretated as being the anointed faithful and discreet slave class. Therefore, is there anyone who understands this and how this belief could have possibility have changed? Because at one time, these doctrines and beliefs were truths that came from God. Therefore, I don't quite understand how all that could have been gospel truth at one time, but then it was decided that all these beliefs were mistaken. πŸ€” πŸ€” πŸ€”

P.S. Oh, and BTW, JWs interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 were involved where it was believed that the elderly anointed JWs from the early 1900s who had died, had been instantly transformed into powerful spirit beings who were filling up the number of 144,000 in heaven. (Revelation 7:3-4) However, I supposed that JWs now believe that the number that is supposed to be eventually sealed and filled is constantly in flux now? πŸ€” And that it's pretty common that someone who was sealed can be unsealed and open up a new spot in heaven for the anointed? πŸ€”

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #11

Post by Skeptical »

Miles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:04 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 am
Miles wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:00 pm Also, does ANYONE KNOW if JWs still believe all of this? Plus, I was wondering if JWs are avoiding this topic because they want to save face? πŸ€” πŸ€” πŸ€”
Certainly they still believe it.

"The 'anointed'
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.
*
*
The Witnesses understand Jesus’ words at John 3:3β€”"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"β€”to apply to the 144,000 who are "born again" as "anointed" sons of God in heaven.
source: Wikipedia Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation

Unfortunately, some JWs believe not all 144,000 seats have been filled and that there's room for them.

"The members of the Governing Body who exercise teaching authority over Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide claim to be among the anointed 144,000, and also consider themselves as a group to be the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42."
source: Wikipedia. "Jehovah's Witnesses. Main article: The 'anointed' (Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation)
But how does that work? Because wouldn't eventually that small number of the supposedly "little flock" be filled up?
They're the ones bending scripture so you'd have to ask them. ;)


.
I have. But with what 2timothy316 said in post #8, if sounds like the JWs at this forum are either ill-informed about the topic or are hesitant to discuss it. πŸ€”

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #12

Post by 2timothy316 »

Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:57 pm
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:34 am
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:57 am But I do want to debate this. That is why I put it in this forum.
Then I doubt you're get any takers. The JWs here roll their eyes at yet another post about the FDS, you're not the first one BTW and I for one am tired of trying to explain something to people that don't understand or don't accept the basics of the Bible. Its a waste of time.
But I'm not people... I'm me, and you haven't had this discussion with me yet. πŸ˜‰
And never will.
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:34 am So, yes you did waste your time and effort if you are looking for a debate. And others here don't know enough about it to debate it or more truthfully don't care about it.
So, do you mean "others" as in other JWs don't know enough about it to debate it... or other non-JWs don't know enough about it to debate it? Because if it's the former, then that's sad. πŸ˜•
Non-JWs can try, they will be incorrect and I personally do not care enough to waste time to correct them. There is only a handful of posters here that I can even see their posts. The rest are set on ignore and can't even see their posts. Looks like you're heading in that direction as well.

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:01 pm
Miles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:04 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 am
Miles wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:00 pm Also, does ANYONE KNOW if JWs still believe all of this? Plus, I was wondering if JWs are avoiding this topic because they want to save face? πŸ€” πŸ€” πŸ€”
Certainly they still believe it.

"The 'anointed'
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.
*
*
The Witnesses understand Jesus’ words at John 3:3β€”"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"β€”to apply to the 144,000 who are "born again" as "anointed" sons of God in heaven.
source: Wikipedia Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation

Unfortunately, some JWs believe not all 144,000 seats have been filled and that there's room for them.

"The members of the Governing Body who exercise teaching authority over Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide claim to be among the anointed 144,000, and also consider themselves as a group to be the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42."
source: Wikipedia. "Jehovah's Witnesses. Main article: The 'anointed' (Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation)
But how does that work? Because wouldn't eventually that small number of the supposedly "little flock" be filled up?
They're the ones bending scripture so you'd have to ask them. ;)


.
I have. But with what 2timothy316 said in post #8, if sounds like the JWs at this forum are either ill-informed about the topic or are hesitant to discuss it. πŸ€”
Yeah. JehovahsWitness has taken to closing me out with a

"These users thanked the author Miles for the post:
JehovahsWitness"

when I've bested him or put him in an uncomfortable corner, essentially ending any more dialog on the subject with me. As when I asked him for evidence for his claim that "the Hebrew ZIRMAH [Χ–Φ΄Χ¨Φ°ΧžΦΈΧ”], was in fact a reference to genitalia rather than seminal emissions." in post 39 of JoeMama's thread, Porn in the Bible?


As for the 144,000, I firmly believe JWs are hesitant to discuss it, or outright won't, because it's an embarrassment, but who can blame them.

.

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #14

Post by Skeptical »

2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:10 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:57 pm
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:34 am
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:57 am But I do want to debate this. That is why I put it in this forum.
Then I doubt you're get any takers. The JWs here roll their eyes at yet another post about the FDS, you're not the first one BTW and I for one am tired of trying to explain something to people that don't understand or don't accept the basics of the Bible. Its a waste of time.
But I'm not people... I'm me, and you haven't had this discussion with me yet. πŸ˜‰
And never will.
LOL πŸ˜„ So, what are you doing now? LOL πŸ˜„
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:10 pm
2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:34 am So, yes you did waste your time and effort if you are looking for a debate. And others here don't know enough about it to debate it or more truthfully don't care about it.
So, do you mean "others" as in other JWs don't know enough about it to debate it... or other non-JWs don't know enough about it to debate it? Because if it's the former, then that's sad. πŸ˜•
Non-JWs can try, they will be incorrect and I personally do not care enough to waste time to correct them. There is only a handful of posters here that I can even see their posts. The rest are set on ignore and can't even see their posts. Looks like you're heading in that direction as well.
That's fine... Because it will only prove my point. πŸ˜‰ Especially with someone who has only behaved kindly and respectfully, and who has never shown you any anger or disrespect.

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #15

Post by Skeptical »

Miles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:48 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:01 pm
Miles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:04 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:03 am
Miles wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 pm
Skeptical wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:00 pm Also, does ANYONE KNOW if JWs still believe all of this? Plus, I was wondering if JWs are avoiding this topic because they want to save face? πŸ€” πŸ€” πŸ€”
Certainly they still believe it.

"The 'anointed'
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.
*
*
The Witnesses understand Jesus’ words at John 3:3β€”"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"β€”to apply to the 144,000 who are "born again" as "anointed" sons of God in heaven.
source: Wikipedia Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation

Unfortunately, some JWs believe not all 144,000 seats have been filled and that there's room for them.

"The members of the Governing Body who exercise teaching authority over Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide claim to be among the anointed 144,000, and also consider themselves as a group to be the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42."
source: Wikipedia. "Jehovah's Witnesses. Main article: The 'anointed' (Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation)
But how does that work? Because wouldn't eventually that small number of the supposedly "little flock" be filled up?
They're the ones bending scripture so you'd have to ask them. ;)


.
I have. But with what 2timothy316 said in post #8, if sounds like the JWs at this forum are either ill-informed about the topic or are hesitant to discuss it. πŸ€”
Yeah. JehovahsWitness has taken to closing me out with a

"These users thanked the author Miles for the post:
JehovahsWitness"

when I've bested him or put him in an uncomfortable corner, essentially ending any more dialog on the subject with me. As when I asked him for evidence for his claim that "the Hebrew ZIRMAH [Χ–Φ΄Χ¨Φ°ΧžΦΈΧ”], was in fact a reference to genitalia rather than seminal emissions." in post 39 of JoeMama's thread, Porn in the Bible?
So, are they here to proselytize... or are they here to debate? πŸ€”
Miles wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:48 pm As for the 144,000, I firmly believe JWs are hesitant to discuss it, or outright won't, because it's an embarrassment, but who can blame them.

.
Well, that was the impression that I had started to get. πŸ˜•

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 pm...what is JWs' belief regarding their anointed class .... ?

WHAT DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE?


What we believe is a matter of public record. You can find the totality of our present beliefs (and the history of how they developed) on our official website: www.jw.org

Since WHAT we believe is not a debatable topic, if you want to ask details about the beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses, it might be an idea to do so on a more appropriate subforum. See LINK HERE
viewforum.php?f=45
Most Jehovahs Witnesses on this site will be happy to answer questions about our faith unless we suspect they are coming from an Apostate.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

HOW MANY SPIRIT ANOINTED CHRISTIANS IN THE 1900s & THE 20TH CENTURY?


Skeptical wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 pm ...from what I recall about their history, there was supposed to be some sort of calculations about how many anointed 'real' Christians existed in the first century and then all the way up to the latter part of the 19th century/the late 1800s.
I'm sure individuals have speculated on this over the years but I have never seen such "calculations" in any of our official literature. Do you have a jw.org reference?


DOES THE NUMBER OF SPIRIT ANOINTED CHANGE?

Skeptical wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 pm.. I supposed that JWs now believe that the number is constantly in flux now?
Jehovahs Witnesses have never believed the number [144, 000] of anointed Christians has been {quote} " constantly in flux " as in, it goes down to 143,000 and jumps up to 145, 000, dips back to 120,000 etc. The number is we believe, divinely fixed at 144,000.

HOW MANY ARE PRESENTLY ON EARTH?

How many are on earth at any given time is really anyone's guess. The number of participants of the emblems (bread and wine) is perhaps an indicator but since the memorial is a public meeting any Tom, Dick and mentally challenged (or even Apostate) Harry can participate if the desire grabs them, the exact number remains in reality uncertain.

The bottom line is the number of spirit begotten Christians on earth at any given time is under divine jurisdiction and of no great importance to anyone but God and the individual concerned


For the Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of being "sealed" feel free to use the search box at www.jw.org or jw online library.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:28 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS?

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a progressive religion and revision of beliefs is part of our religious culture. See the LINKS below for detail.


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p951631

Should JWs be criticized for recognising their errors [back peddling]when this became evident?
viewtopic.php?p=1044924#p1044924

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Charles Taze Russell was wrong on certain biblical points?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p864789
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 pm...what is JWs' belief regarding their anointed class and how do they know from scripture that there is an anointed class and an earthly class of Christians?

That there are two classes of Christians is based on Jesus words at John 10:16. Below are a list of debate threads where the details have been presented.

RELATED POSTS
Does the bible support the idea of two different groups of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1022933#p1022933

Do different hopes or destinies make different "types" of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1005079#p1005079

How can two distinct groups be united ?
viewtopic.php?p=1120021#p1120021

Are the other sheep and the great crowd synonyms?
viewtopic.php?p=1119725#p1119725


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LITTLE FLOCK , THE OTHER SHEEP and ... THE KINGDOM OF GOD
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Questions About JWs' History and the Anointed Class

Post #20

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:59 am
Skeptical wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:10 pm...what is JWs' belief regarding their anointed class and how do they know from scripture that there is an anointed class and an earthly class of Christians?

That there are two classes of Christians is based on Jesus words at John 10:16. Below are a list of debate threads where the details have been presented.

RELATED POSTS
Does the bible support the idea of two different groups of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1022933#p1022933

Do different hopes or destinies make different "types" of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1005079#p1005079

How can two distinct groups be united ?
viewtopic.php?p=1120021#p1120021

Are the other sheep and the great crowd synonyms?
viewtopic.php?p=1119725#p1119725


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LITTLE FLOCK , THE OTHER SHEEP and ... THE KINGDOM OF GOD
I'm through with yours and the other JWs at this forum's Theocratic War Strategy. πŸ˜‚

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