Summary argument of why the Turin Shroud is authentic

[otseng]

From the thread How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant? ...

Synopsis of argument the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ:

What is the Shroud of Turin?

The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man.

https://www.shroud.com/

Shroud of Turin, also called Holy Shroud, Italian Santa Sindone, a length of linen that for centuries was purported to be the burial garment of Jesus Christ. It has been preserved since 1578 in the royal chapel of the cathedral of San Giovanni Battista in Turin, Italy. Measuring 4.3 metres (14 feet 3 inches) long and 1.1 metres (3 feet 7 inches) wide, it seems to portray two faint brownish images, those of the back and front of a gaunt, sunken-eyed, 5-foot 7-inch man—as if a body had been laid lengthwise along one half of the shroud while the other half had been doubled over the head to cover the whole front of the body from face to feet. The images contain markings that allegedly correspond to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus, including thorn marks on the head, lacerations (as if from flogging) on the back, bruises on the shoulders, and various stains of what is presumed to be blood

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shroud-of-Turin

Summary of arguments on the Shroud of Turin

There's two main views on the shroud:
A) It's a medieval fake that was produced by some artist
B) It's the burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth

Arguments against position A:

1. It is not artwork.

a. This is the conclusion of the 1978 STURP team.

No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image.

We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin.

https://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm

b. Silence from art community on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

c. Silence in art journals on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1108361#p1108361

d. Testimony from Wesselow and Tite that it is not artwork

viewtopic.php?p=1107626#p1107626

viewtopic.php?p=1108258#p1108258

2. Top arguments for fake position are dubious.

a. C-14 dating

viewtopic.php?p=1114068#p1114068

b. d'Arcis memo

viewtopic.php?p=1110516#p1110516

c. McCrone and paint particles

viewtopic.php?p=1118417#p1118417

d. Borrini and Garlaschelli

viewtopic.php?p=1117907#p1117907

viewtopic.php?p=1117908#p1117908

3. There are no viable naturalistic explanations for the origin of the image dispite several attempts.

a. Luigi Garlaschelli

viewtopic.php?p=1107921#p1107921

b. Joe Nickell

viewtopic.php?p=1113694#p1113694

Arguments refuting position A and supporting position B:

1. It is the most scientifically studied artifact.

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

2. Features of the shroud predate the invention of scientific technologies by hundreds of years.

a. Photography

viewtopic.php?p=1104936#p1104936

b. 3-D imaging

viewtopic.php?p=1106347#p1106347

c. X-ray

viewtopic.php?p=1105542#p1105542

d. UV imaging

viewtopic.php?p=1115523#p1115523

viewtopic.php?p=1118525#p1118525

3. Image and blood have features we cannot fully explain.

a. Image only on topmost fibers

viewtopic.php?p=1105228#p1105228

b. Blood is still red

viewtopic.php?p=1105590#p1105590

4. Features of the shroud predate the use of art techniques by hundreds of years.

a. Halftone

viewtopic.php?p=1106542#p1106542

b. Airbrush

viewtopic.php?p=1106604#p1106604

c. Hyperrealism

viewtopic.php?p=1106892

5. Image is medically accurate.

viewtopic.php?p=1106892

6. Features depicted are contrary to artwork and instead depict how it should have actually happened.

a. Scourging

viewtopic.php?p=1116515#p1116515

b. Nail through wrist

viewtopic.php?p=1105368#p1105368

c. Crown of thorns

viewtopic.php?p=1116603#p1116603

d. No body image under blood

viewtopic.php?p=1105790#p1105790

e. Rigor mortis

viewtopic.php?p=1107205#p1107205

7. Image formation is not based on what we visually would see, but on how the cloth would be affected by the imaging mechanism. On the first order, things are depicted correctly, but on the second order, we see things missing as well as distortions.

viewtopic.php?p=1107092#p1107092

8. Blood and image patterns precisely match the gospel accounts and uniqely points to Jesus of Nazareth.

viewtopic.php?p=1119259#p1119259

9. There are additional details on the TS that are not present in the gospel accounts.

a. Dislocated shoulder

viewtopic.php?p=1105467#p1105467

b. Whip marks

viewtopic.php?p=1119062#p1119062

c. Shoulder abrasions

viewtopic.php?p=1117201#p1117201

d. Herringbone weave

viewtopic.php?p=1119994#p1119994

10. Features of the shroud point to 1st century Jerusalem origin.

a. Vanillin test

viewtopic.php?p=1113484#p1113484

b. Dimensions of cloth match Assyrian cubit

viewtopic.php?p=1119548#p1119548

c. Side strip seam matches Masada seam

viewtopic.php?p=1119872#p1119872

d. Banding not seen in medieval weaving, but in ancient weaving

viewtopic.php?p=1120100#p1120100

e. Calcium particles on the feet area matching Jerusalem

viewtopic.php?p=1120231#p1120231

f. Wide Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS) points to first century

viewtopic.php?p=1120354#p1120354

g. DNA analysis has more people touching the shroud from Middle East than Europe

viewtopic.php?p=1120453#p1120453

viewtopic.php?p=1120776#p1120776

The preponderence of scientific evidence of the shroud as noted above points to the authenticity of the shroud as the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. However, the argument above does not claim anything miraculous occurred or that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. It is through studying the body image we can conclude the body image was a result of something outside of current science.

Summary of top body imaging theories

The imaging theories can be broadly grouped into naturalistic explanations (NE) and non-naturalistic/supernatural explanations (SE).

Naturalistic explanations can be subdivided into a work of an artist (NE-art) or something that would happen naturally without any involvement of an artist (NE-nature).

NE-art would involve things like painting, scorch, dye, rubbing, photograph, and bas-relief. This is the least likely since this was the conclusion of the 1978 STURP investigation:
viewtopic.php?p=1124026#p1124026

I've also argued there is virtual silence from the art community on the TS. Yet, the TS is the most scientifically studied artifact in human history. So, it makes no sense the TS is a work of art.

I've spent time on the bas-relief in several posts arguing it is not viable:
viewtopic.php?p=1113694#p1113694
viewtopic.php?p=1124310#p1124310
viewtopic.php?p=1124427#p1124427

I've also addressed the proto-photograph method:
viewtopic.php?p=1124231#p1124231

The top NE-nature explanation is the Maillard reaction, proposed by Ray Rogers. I've addressed that at:
viewtopic.php?p=1124081#p1124081

Three top SE explanations are corona/electrostatic discharge, neutron emission, and cloth collapse.

I've addressed the corona/electrostatic discharge:
viewtopic.php?p=1124174#p1124174

and the neutron emission:
viewtopic.php?p=1124551#p1124551

I presented the cloth collapse here:
viewtopic.php?p=1123740#p1123740

There are actually more theories than what I've presented, but most all the others are variations on the ones above.

There is no theory that fully explains all the features of the body image, but the one that explains the most is Jackson's cloth collapse theory.

viewtopic.php?p=1125096#p1125096

Therefore Jackson's cloth collapse theory involving the body dematerializing best explains the body image compared to all other imaging theories.

Blood stain theories

No viable artistic method has been proposed to account for the blood stains and there has been no attempt to replicate all the blood markings. So, at this time, really the only viable explanation for the blood on the shroud is the actual burial of Jesus.

viewtopic.php?p=1125806#p1125806

Dematerialization and resurrection

So, what could've caused Jesus to dematerialize? We have no naturalistic scenarios to explain this. It would be a miracle. It is not a proof of Jesus' resurrection, but it would be a rational conclusion given all the evidence from the shroud.

The obvious point of weakness in the design argument from the Shroud is
that our evidence that weak dematerialization was the mechanism by which the
Shroud was formed, while impressive, is not conclusive. However, the conjecture
that a very powerful intelligence would be responsible for such an extraordinary
event seems highly plausible.

The design argument from the
Shroud, however, on the Jackson-Trenn theory, shows that some intelligent,
purposive, and very powerful agent has acted in a specific event in comparatively
recent history.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

So, what we have with the Shroud of Turin is verifiable evidence that supports the claim of the resurrection of Jesus.

On this theory, the Shroud offers evidence for two of the three crucial elements
implied by the claim that a Resurrection took place. This is an important
achievement, for two centuries of biblical criticism, much of it directed against the
Resurrection, in conjunction with increased standards of evidence as science has
been incorporated into all forms of critical thinking, have undermined confidence
both inside and outside the Church that the Resurrection ever occurred.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

What is also interesting is Jesus said his resurrection would be the only evidence he would provide that he is the Messiah.

When asked by the Pharisees to show that he is from God, Jesus replied with the sign of Jonah.

[Mat 12:38-40 NIV] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He also had said he would rebuild the temple in 3 days.

[Jhn 2:18-19 NIV] 18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Both of these are references to him being resurrected after three days.

This evidence was not only for the Jews of the first century. It is evidence for us today as well. We have the actual shroud of Jesus in our hands today that testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

viewtopic.php?p=1125229#p1125229

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #1]

Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ:

Crucifixion: How many people have been crucified?

Quora
https://www.quora.com › Crucifixion-How-many-peo...
29/03/2016
"It's impossible to be precise but certainly tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, and conceivably even more. 6,000 were crucified on a single day..."

Considering the numbers, what makes one certain this particular cloth is the actual burial cloth Jesus' body was wrapped in?

[otseng]

Considering the numbers, what makes one certain this particular cloth is the actual burial cloth Jesus' body was wrapped in?

I answered that here:

1. He was crucified. Even rationalwiki acknowledges the TSM is a crucified person:

"Even if the shroud was authentically proven to come from 1st century Judea, this would only show that someone was crucified"
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

Because he was crucified dramatically reduces the number of possible people. We don't know exactly how many people were crucified in the 1st century, but from archaeological records, we only have a handful of artifacts of crucified people.

viewtopic.php?p=1108120#p1108120

2. He was scourged. We don't know exactly how many crucified people were also scourged, but it's doubtful all crucified people were scourged. Crucifixion is already one of the most severe forms of torture, why would they need to spend more time and energy to have done additional torture?

So, the evidence of scourging further narrows down the number.

viewtopic.php?p=1116515#p1116515

3. He had a crown of thorns. There is no textual or artifact evidence of anyone else in history that has been crucified, scourged, and had a crown of thorns other than Jesus.

viewtopic.php?p=1116603#p1116603

4. Side wound. Doubtful many that were crucified was pierced in the side.

viewtopic.php?p=1116855#p1116855

5. Carried the cross. Most likely many carried their own cross, but we have no evidence all carried their own cross.

viewtopic.php?p=1117201#p1117201

6. Facial wounds. Not likely many would be beaten up in the face also.

viewtopic.php?p=1118831#p1118831

7. No broken bones. Legs were frequently broken for crucifixion victims, so this would be rare to have unbroken legs.

viewtopic.php?p=1118973#p1118973

These 7 factors pretty much conclusively points to Jesus of Nazareth on the shroud. In terms of textual evidence, there is nobody else that is even a remote match.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #3]

5. Carried the cross. Most likely many carried their own cross, but we have no evidence all carried their own cross.

So how does one explain how scourging marks and scuffing marks can be identified on the cloth?

But lets just assume that this is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus.

So what?

[otseng]

So how does one explain how scourging marks and scuffing marks can be identified on the cloth?

Each point has a link to it with the evidence.

But lets just assume that this is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus.

My whole argument is it is artifact evidence to support the resurrection of Jesus.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #5]

Is that because there are no bones with the cloth, or for some other reason?

Supposing Jesus was resurrected.

So what?

[otseng]

Is that because there are no bones with the cloth, or for some other reason?

It's already explained in the first post. The evidence points to his body dematerializing.

Supposing Jesus was resurrected.
So what?

That is also already explained in the first post. It testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #7]

It's already explained in the first post. The evidence points to his body dematerializing.

Yes - I read that, but don't see the connection.
dematerialize
/ˌdiːməˈtɪərɪəlʌɪz/
verb
gerund or present participle: dematerializing
1.
become free of physical substance.

Search:
"What are some examples of dematerialization?"
This shift from a reliance on products to services is the process of dematerialization. Digital music distribution systems, car clubs, bike hire schemes and laundry services all can be examples of dematerialization.

Search "Can science make things dematerialize?"

Dematerialization

Views 2,794,485

Dematerialization
The phenomenon of disappearance of phantom forms, human beings, or objects after being manifested or materialized. The terms apports and asports refer to the materialization and dematerialization of objects, involving their disappearance at one place and reappearance at another place some distance away. No satisfactory scientific theory for reported materialization or dematerialization has yet been offered, and little evidence has been produced to suggest that such phenomena in fact occur.

There are, of course, numerous anecdotal tales of materialization and dematerialization. Cases have been reported of dis-appearance and reappearance of persons, sometimes over hundreds of miles, often referred to as teleportation and transfiguration.

In the case of phantoms or spirits of the dead, the materialization is said to be formed from ectoplasm, a mysterious psychic substance exuded by a medium. Ectoplasm was often faked by mediums through the use of phosphor-covered cheesecloth and similar artifacts. Cases have also been reported of partial materialization and dematerialization by mediums such as Elizabeth d'Esperance.

The obvious point of weakness in the design argument from the Shroud is
that our evidence that weak dematerialization was the mechanism by which the
Shroud was formed, while impressive, is not conclusive. However, the conjecture
that a very powerful intelligence would be responsible for such an extraordinary
event seems highly plausible.

The design argument from the
Shroud, however, on the Jackson-Trenn theory, shows that some intelligent,
purposive, and very powerful agent has acted in a specific event in comparatively
recent history.

It appears obvious that the argument is that the image in the cloth is assumed to have occurred due to some as yet unknown process which caused the body to "dematerialize" rather than say - regenerate - as per the Lazarus story.

Assuming the resurrection story isa true account, have you considered any other variables which could explain the event without resorting to supernaturalism?

That is also already explained in the first post. It testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

So what?

Of what value is a Messiah if all that remains is a fragile piece of burial cloth as evidence?
Of what value is a piece of burial cloth if there is no Messiah evident?

IOW

Of what value is an immaterial Messiah to a material world?

[otseng]

Cases have been reported of dis-appearance and reappearance of persons, sometimes over hundreds of miles, often referred to as teleportation and transfiguration.

What is different in this case is we have empirical evidence of dematerialization.

It appears obvious that the argument is that the image in the cloth is assumed to have occurred due to some as yet unknown process which caused the body to "dematerialize" rather than say - regenerate - as per the Lazarus story.

Yes.

Assuming the resurrection story isa true account, have you considered any other variables which could explain the event without resorting to supernaturalism?

Yes, I've already explored naturalistic explanations. The primary alternate explanation is it is an artwork, which I've covered in the OP.

As for naturalistic non-artwork explanations, the major class is some sort of vapor emitted from the body. I've covered that at:
viewtopic.php?p=1124081#p1124081

Of what value is a Messiah if all that remains is a fragile piece of burial cloth as evidence?
Of what value is a piece of burial cloth if there is no Messiah evident?
Of what value is an immaterial Messiah to a material world?

I'm arguing from both empirical and textual evidence. The TS testifies he bodily dematerialized and the Bible testifies he bodily rose from the dead. So he's not purely a spiritual or immaterial Messiah.

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #9]

I'm arguing from both empirical and textual evidence. The TS testifies he bodily dematerialized and the Bible testifies he bodily rose from the dead.

The contradiction therein is both the claim the body dematerialized AND that the body regenerated.

So he's not purely a spiritual or immaterial Messiah.

Is the assumption from Supernaturalist Philosophy that because something can't be seen, it must be "immaterial"?

Assuming the resurrection story is a true account, have you considered any other variables which could explain the event without resorting to supernaturalism?

Yes, I've already explored naturalistic explanations. The primary alternate explanation is it is an artwork, which I've covered in the OP.

As for naturalistic non-artwork explanations, the major class is some sort of vapor emitted from the body. I've covered that at:

What about technological explanations?