Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 110 by William]

OK I get it, I thought you were using the term as a proper noun ... I was a little thrown by the word "species" which made me think of created beings. So basically you are using a Hebrew word, even though we are speaking English, and referring to "gods" (deities)... ie Zeus, Hermes, Molech, ...Of course the deities in the bible cannot be viewed as a single homogenous group, which is why each usually has a personal name.


Anyway, you said "You seem to think GOD as being perfect the ..."

I would say yes. MY God (Elohim) is Yahweh Elohim (JEHOVAH God in English) and I do indeed believe Him to be perfect because he us thus depicted in scripture.

.... but the bible stories do not paint that picture

Well that would depend on which of the deities (elohim) is being referred to (see above). The Baals seemed pretty discusting if you ask me. The false gods (elohim) were as you said "...woefully lacking any understanding (and thus empathy) as to what it was actually like to BE human. " which is why the true God (JEHOVAH) warned his people to avoid worshipping them.

"the picture painted is one of a species (Elohim) far more highly advanced in the sciences and able to do great awesome fear inspiring things in relation to humans ..."

If you are talking about YAHWEH ELOHIM, then I would absolutely agree!! He is, in my opinion, most awesome!




Thanks, that was interesting.

JW

[William]

[Replying to post 110 by William]

OK I get it, I thought you were using the term as a proper noun ... I was a little thrown by the word "species" which made me think of created beings. So basically you are using a Hebrew word, even though we are speaking English, and referring to "gods" (deities)... ie Zeus, Hermes, Molech, ie saying 'in the bible different Gods have different characteristics...' ect. That is true.

Is that true?
Not entirely.

I am being specific to biblical Gods - not gods which happen to be mentioned in the bible or in other places.
I am being 'specific to the word "us", used in the phrase "like us."in relation to knowing through experience the nature of good and evil and various accompanying morals attached to that.

One more question, upon what do you base this observation " more highly advanced in the sciences"

Are we there yet? "More highly advanced" than humans were in the Genesis story and also still more highly advanced than humans are today.
Specific is my focus upon biological lifeforms on this planet and they (the biblical Gods) having created these.

Highly advanced.

Anyway, you said "You seem to think GOD as being perfect the ..."

I would say yes, my God (Elohim) is Yahweh Elohim (JEHOVAH God in English) and I do indeed believe Him to be perfect because he us thus depicted in scripture.

It is easy to impress less advanced species when being compared. Perfection obtained within the structure of the physical universe, using science as the device in which to accomplish this.

You seem to think GOD as being perfect but the bible stories do not paint that picture

Well that would depend on which of the deities (elohim) is being referred to (see above). The Baal seemed pretty Discusting if you ask me.

The biblical GOD. Those things assigned to being the direct actions of the Elohim. I do not consider that Elohim refers to imagined gods of human invention. It refers to the beings who work(ed) on behalf of the collective Elohim Agenda. I have seem many names for the representative of that collective agenda, and Jehovah is one of those.
Adonai is the collective.

(and no - as far as I am aware, Baal is not actually a real god ...do you think he/she is?)

Thanks anyway,

JW

Your welcome anyway.

[William]

You seemed to have altered your original post a little...I will let that sit for now and see if it changes anything.

[Claire Evans]

I'm not saying you are dull for not doing so. I'm asking you if you think it is okay to not just automatically believe what is written in there.

I believe the bible is the word of God, unless I am given reason to believe a verse is spurious (which given the number of ancient manuscripts now available renders this possibility extremely unlikely) then I do indeed automatically believe what is written in there. And no, I do not believe it is ok not to. God cannot lie and the bible is, I believe God speaking to man.

The verses don't make it spurious in that there are translation issues necessarily. However, remember people are human and the writers, particularly the OT, have their own agendas. We need to understand, for example, that the Tree of Life in the Genesis story is from the Kabbahlah which also has a Tree of Life. It's ancient Babylonian mysticism. The writers compiled the OT using the Hebrew documents J, E, P and D. The Jews were very much influenced by Babylon because of the exile. So don't assume works influenced by Babylon now make it the Word of God.

Is there a subforum where people can challenge the accepted meanings of the Bible?

I gave no indication it is wrong to do this, indeed Jehovahs Witnesses have doing just that for over 100 years. Thus we don't believe in the Trinity, we don't believe in the immortality of the soul, we don't believe in hellfire. ... challenging the accepted meanings of the Bible is our speciality.



But he who challenges accepted meanings must expect to be challenged in return.

But isn't this subforum about the Bible being the ultimate authority as believed by original Christianity? How can the Bible be the ultimate authority when they are so many different interpretations? Some of what you say is just not scriptural. For example hellfire (Luke 16:19-31) and the omnipresence of Satan (Matthew 16:23). At lease admit the latter indicates that Satan is omniscient.

[Claire Evans]

So you are assuming that God chose to be clueless about Satan? I think that is despicable of God if this is true.

So you are assuming that God chose to be clueless about Satan?

No. I am extremely careful about the words I write, every syllable has been chosen carefully. I did not say God "chose to be clueless about Satan" and I did not use those words because that would imply that God has chosen to be totally ignorant about the actions, motives methods, identity and future of that particular renargade and extremely dangerous individual.

My exact words were ...

God CAN know everything about any of His creation, including what choices we will make in the future; more often than not however, he choses to learn about our choices when they make them, in other words he uses his powers SELECTIVELY.


Sideshow: Did God know that Adam & Eve would sin?

If you will note I said, "more often than not". This implies that there are selected instances when God does indeed choose to forsee the future of an individual, but that such actions are neither systematic or automatic. The very existants of Prophecy testifies to this. Satan would be one of those cases where Jehovah has used his power of foreknowledge. Jehovah, many years millenia in advance announced details of Satan's future including his ultimate demise in the lake of fire as described in the last book of the Bible Revelation.

You said God has the ability to know what the choices are in advance. Therefore it is possible that He could know what Satan would do but chose NOT to. Therefore He chose not to know what Satan would do. You are saying He chose only to know what Satan would do after he made the choice.

1 John 3:20

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

If does not say that He sometimes doesn't know things.

You said that Satan is one of the cases where God had foreknowledge yet He didn't know what choices Satan would make? So He chose not to know this in the beginning but chose to know what his destiny would be? I thought you don't believe in hell fire so what's this lake of fire you are talking about?

Should be be clueless about the sin we have done, we'd still have to answer for it but not God? God set up up for failure if what you said is right?

I'm sorry I simply don't understand what you have just said here so I can't address this point.

God putting the tree in the Garden of Evil is a form of temptation. Adam and Eve could not have sinned if that temptation wasn't there. Putting temptation in their way contradicts the Lord's prayer that says, "Lead us not into temptation..."

It was inevitable that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. The desire to do wrong is innate in us.

[Claire Evans]

So God can destroy Satan now but chooses not to? If He had the ability to just destroy Satan now, why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?
Do you have any scriptural basis on God being selective of what He chooses to know? The Bible says He is omniscient but this cannot be true if He selectively doesn't know certain things.

So God can destroy Satan now but chooses not to

• Obviously that is the case, I presume YOU believe the same since you said that Satan isn't omnipotent but God is. If God is all powerful but Satan isn't then Jehovah logically has enough power to destroy Satan but Satan hasn't enough power to prevent it. Unless you believe Satan is already destroyed you too believe this sentence to be true, no?

I didn't say God was omnipotent. If God was, Satan would have no power at all. Without Jesus, Satan would never have been defeated but defeated doesn't mean instant destruction. I also asked for scriptures that indicate God uses His powers selectively.

If He had the ability to just destroy Satan now, why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?

So you think GOD was not omnipotent back in the garden of Eden? Are you implying with this question that when the angel that became Satan rebelled, God thought "

• Oh my, if only I were strong enough to detroyed this pest, but I *can't* ... I'm just don't have enough power!"

** What part of being omnipotent involves not being strong enough to destroy Satan if that be his good pleasure ?

I don't believe in the Adam and Eve story because it is Sumerian. It didn't happen the way Genesis said it didn't. In fact, Adam and Eve represented the first humans who were genetically modified.

why did He think the only option to save mankind was for Jesus to die for our sins?

• If you think GOD was omnipotent and Satan isn't why YOU think he chose the option he did? Is it not, like me, because in his Infinite wisdom He decided that the above option would render the best results.

I don't believe God is omnipotent. What other option do you think would not have rendered the best results? Destroying Satan on the spot? That would have been good because then Jesus would not have had to suffer a horrendous death and hell.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 93 by Claire Evans]

Do you have any scriptural basis on God being selective of what He chooses to know?

I have already provided the bible based reasoning here?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#848314

That forum is no longer available.

There are also the instances in the bible when Jehovah indicates he did not know what an individual or group would do:

- Abraham & Isaac -see Gen 22:12
- Jonah & Ninevites - Jonah 3:10

As well as the occasions where God said he has regretted how things turned out (Gen 6:6) or has changed his mind in scripture (compare Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3;Jeremiah 18:10)

That's because Yahweh was one of many gods and thus not omniscient. He was a being with sophisticated technology yet not a supernatural being.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy ... ient-truth

Further reading Total or Selective Foreknowledge?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009048#h=6

"The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that a great crowd of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14)

Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd."

But God knew about the 144 000. That's a specific number.

The Bible says He is omniscient but this cannot be true if He selectively doesn't know certain things.

• Actually the word "omniscient" isn't in the bible. Scripture tells us the things Jehovah God knows and is capable of knowing and leaves us to deduce how he uses these powers and/or what self-imposed limits, if any, he applies. We are BOTH deducing from scripture. You say God sets zero limits on his use of this power, I say He puts "some". I propose my conclusion is more in line with what the bible has revealed as to His personality, past and present actions and stated purpose.

"Knowing everything" is the same as omniscient.

1 John 3:20


If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything

omniscient
mnsnt/Submit
adjective
knowing everything.

[JehovahsWitness]

God putting the tree in the Garden of Evil is a form of temptation. Adam and Eve could not have sinned if that temptation wasn't there. Putting temptation in their way contradicts the Lord's prayer that says, "Lead us not into temptation..."

It was inevitable that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. The desire to do wrong is innate in us.

Okay so apart from implying God was unrighteous and unreasonable and that Genesis contradicts scripture, how does this relate to being omniscient ?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 117 by Claire Evans]


OMNISCIENCE

QUESTION Does the idea of being selective in the use of his powers negate God being "all knowing" in nature ?

Many believe that because God is all powerful he is obliged to exercise his use off all his powers at all times. This is far from the case. Indeed, note a dictionary definition of the word omniscient:

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Note it does not say "using" but "having" "possessed of". If one has something is he obliged to use it? If someone had all the money in the world, is he obliged to spend it? If someone has all cars that exists do you have to drive them. God's being "all knowing " (omniscient) is a description of his abilities, his nature; He is "all knowing" in the same way as He is "all powerful", ie there is nothing he cannot know or do, NOT that there is nothing he does not know or do. This essentially amounts to God's omniscience being inherent.


Note the dictionary explanation below:

An omnivore (all eating) such as a human, does not have to eat everything until he has eaten everything on earth, it means he CAN eat any type of food. An all knowing God can know everything it doesn't necessarily mean he has to chose to. Chosing not to no more stops him from being all knowing than turning down a steak dinner stops a man from being an omnivor.


OBJECTION But doesn't 1 John 3:20 say "If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Given the Scriptures that indicate that God does learn how individuals will react and adjust accordjngly, there is no reason not to understand this passage as speaking in the relative (rather than in absolute) terms, ie he knows everything about our heart (our inner person, including motives, thoughts and our mental, emotional and spiritual make-up )


CONCLUSION There is nothing in the bibe that negates an inherent omniscient reading and much to support it.




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OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 115 by Claire Evans]


[center]
Do god know or do he not know?.. that is the ungrammatical question.[/center]

You said God has the ability to know what the choices are in advance. Therefore it is possible that He could know what Satan would do but chose NOT to.

Well I could choose to jump off a bridge.
I either jump or I don't.

God knows something or he don't.
If GOD for any reason at all does NOT know something, ( lets say its way more fun for him to be surprised ) then it would quite silly to say that he DO.

( the very idea is as bad as my grammar )