Body or no?

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nobspeople
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Body or no?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In reading through the below article, it seems there's a divisive ideology over rather the body of jesus was physically raised at the resurrection or not.
For discussion:
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
Why does it matter one way or the other?
Or does it not matter and why?



https://www.yahoo.com/news/baptists-hol ... 43339.html
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Body or no?

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:31 am ...
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
...
I believe he rose physically, because of these scriptures. But, I don’t think it was the same as we are now, for example because Jesus could appear to locked room.

“Don’t touch me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”… ...When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be to you.”
John 20:17,19

The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace be to you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”
John 20:25-27

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Re: Body or no?

Post #3

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Well, this will come as no surprise. No I do not believe that Jesus resurrected, either as a spirit from his body (which is what I propose the disciples taught Paul),as a dead body getting up and walking (because if there was a record of any such thing, Mark WOULD have written it as pretty much the earliest account, and the other three would not have had to Invent three utterly contradictory accounts) or indeed the version that best explains the puzzles of the gospels and the evidence of the narration - if there is any credit to be put in the common story, then Jesus 'rose' with the assistance of those who put himin the tomb. Maybe he survived; maybe he died, but a supernatural resurrection is the least likely proposition, even if it's the one the religious would like to claim is the only possible one.
1213 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:43 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:31 am ...
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
...
I believe he rose physically, because of these scriptures. But, I don’t think it was the same as we are now, for example because Jesus could appear to locked room.

“Don’t touch me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”… ...When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be to you.”
John 20:17,19

The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace be to you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”
John 20:25-27

So there's the thing and the problem and what seems to be ignored and has been over 2 thousand years of assiduous poreing over the gospels by people who knew it by heart. Matthew has no record of Jesus appearing in that locked room. After all, the disciples were told that He was going to Galilee (give or take an appearance to the Marys before he caught the Galilee Greyhound)and he would see them there, and so it was. It utterly contradicts Luke's claim that Jesus rolled up in the evening as well as appearing to Cleophas on the road to Emmaus or to Simon while Cleophas is on the way back. But then we know that Luke reinvented the whole story to make the Disciples stay in Jerusalem (because that is what Paul's letters said). Now superficially, John appears to confirm the Sunday appearance in the locked room, and never mind that 2,000 years of Bible study have ignored it that Luke denies that Thomas was off somewhere (all the eleven were there) but an expert on my former board assured me that the later John was added at some later date. Ok, this is the return to Galilee where they see Jesus on the shore and miraculous draft of fish which Luke has at the calling of disciples.

Upshot is that there are a lot of traditions floating about when the gospels were written and -especially in the terminally contradictory resurrection -accounts, none of this can be regarded as credible or trustworthy or reliable eyewitness accounts and so NO conclusions about the nature of Jesus resurrected body (which had all the crucifixion mark in anyway) can be drawn and suggested to anyone else.

So our pal above can post an opinon or belief and welcome, but it carries no weight and I'd suggest no credibility.

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Re: Body or no?

Post #4

Post by Veridican »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:31 am In reading through the below article, it seems there's a divisive ideology over rather the body of jesus was physically raised at the resurrection or not.
For discussion:
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
Why does it matter one way or the other?
Or does it not matter and why?



https://www.yahoo.com/news/baptists-hol ... 43339.html
I agree with 1213. He rose from the dead. His body rose from the dead, but it wasn't like a normal physical body anymore. See, I believe that the new heaven and earth will occur when God merges the astral and physical world together, as it was in the Garden of Eden. One of the supports I use for that theological stance is the nature of Jesus' body when he rose from the tomb. It is like a combination of an astral body and a physical body.

Frankly, for me, it's not terribly important. I didn't live back then, so I didn't see it happen, so the miraculous nature of it (more accurately: the supernatural aspect of it) is lost on me. I live in the 21st century. I encounter Jesus Christ through his words. But I have a feeling if he had not risen from the dead as he said he would, I wouldn't have his life and teachings to save me.
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Re: Body or no?

Post #5

Post by Diagoras »

Veridican wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:10 pm See, I believe that the new heaven and earth will occur when God merges the astral and physical world together, as it was in the Garden of Eden. One of the supports I use for that theological stance is the nature of Jesus' body when he rose from the tomb. It is like a combination of an astral body and a physical body.
<bolding mine>
Genesis 1 wrote:6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

God said, Let there be a firmament to separate the water from the water.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
I don't see any mention in the Bible where the Garden of Eden is made up of astral and physical forms?

Is an 'astral body' the same as a 'soul'?

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Re: Body or no?

Post #6

Post by Veridican »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:13 pm
Veridican wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:10 pm See, I believe that the new heaven and earth will occur when God merges the astral and physical world together, as it was in the Garden of Eden. One of the supports I use for that theological stance is the nature of Jesus' body when he rose from the tomb. It is like a combination of an astral body and a physical body.
<bolding mine>
Genesis 1 wrote:6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

God said, Let there be a firmament to separate the water from the water.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
I don't see any mention in the Bible where the Garden of Eden is made up of astral and physical forms?

Is an 'astral body' the same as a 'soul'?
No. It's not the same.

And in the Garden, consider also that God was there in the Garden with them. He walked in the Garden. It had supernatural "trees" in it (the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the tree of Life). Not to mention, it only makes sense that the entire saga of creation would culminate in a synthesis of the two planes. The whole thing. But that's another discussion.
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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Re: Body or no?

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:31 am
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
You seem to be asking posters to post about their beliefs, (ie " I believe. ... ) is that correct? I ask because some have objected to my pointing out I was posting about my beliefs.


Are you really asking for poster to provide verifiable proof Jesus was resurrected at all or simply how readers understand the bible text?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Body or no?

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:22 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:31 am
Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
You seem to be asking posters to post about their beliefs, (ie " I believe. ... ) is that correct? I ask because some have objected to my pointing out I was posting about my beliefs.


Are you really asking for poster to provide verifiable proof Jesus was resurrected at all or simply how readers understand the bible text?
"Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?
Why does it matter one way or the other?
Or does it not matter and why?"

No where in there does it ask to 'show your work'.
That doesn't mean your belief can't be challenged.
Take that for what you will.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Body or no?

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:28 am
"Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?

Just asking for clarification ... are you inviting people to post personal beliefs ? I ask because some have objected to my pointing out I was posting about my beliefs.

I dont want to post and then be told my points are irrelevant ; just want to post that which is relevant to the OP. What I would be posting wojld be my bible based beliefs is that okay?




JESUS RESURRECTION

Is it possible to harmonize the four different gospel accounts of the resurrection?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p927279

Was "doubting Thomas" being reasonable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 69#p904969

What would Christ's resurrection prove?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 37#p857837

How important is it for a Christian to believe Christ was raised from the dead?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p962391

Was Jesus resurrected as a human being?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p909944

Does the bible teach that Jesus was ressurrected back to human life in a physical body?
viewtopic.php?p=840289#p840289

Was there a mass resurrection on the day Jesus died [Mat 27:51-3]?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p775340
To read more please go to other posts related to...

THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD, THE RESURRECTION and ... THE 144,000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

nobspeople
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Re: Body or no?

Post #10

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:07 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:28 am
"Do you believe jesus physically rose or not?

Just asking for clarification ... are you inviting people to post personal beliefs ? I ask because some have objected to my pointing out I was posting about my beliefs.
How is this: 'Do you believe jesus physically rose or not' not a personal belief?
Make note, a personal belief can still be challenged or objected to in this format.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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