How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[TRANSPONDER]

A few comments.

I had a look at the Biblical chronology of the exodus. One site (which I won't link as why put them on the spot, or put the spot on them?) had anything from Amenhotep III to Rameses II, mid 1200's to mid 1400's BC. The 'evidence'was miserably thin. Amenhotep's son died - but I'm sure it was once argued that Ramesses IInd's son died, too. There was some talk that excused Ramesses not being drowned in the Red sea, when of course he could have sent his chariots chasing while he watched; though true, you'd expect him to be in the van. More of a doubt is the idea of Ramesses and his chariots pursuing the Israelites across the Sinai to Wyatt's proposed land -bridge crossing (I've never been able to confirm or deny whether there is one) which is the East branch of the Red sea, crossing to Arabia (which is where the supposed Moses camp is). You'd expect the chariots to catch the fleeing Hebrews at the West branch before crossing into Sinai, but then the Wyatt 'evidence' for the Exodus isn't worth a cuss anyway.

But I finally checked a Question that otseng posed some time ago. Was the earth ever totally covered in water? (rummaging around for total flood, hey?) and it seems, no. The continents seem to have changed from a single land mass to separate lands (like today) and combined again, several times, but at no time was there never a land mass. Or so geologists tell us. No real evidence for a total global flood, at all. Local Floods perhaps, like the Black Sea flood (though the Biblical flood derives from the Mesopotamian account). But that utterly debunks the Bible -claim of how and why there was a Flood at all. It's like I say: even where there is (possibly)a real event,the Biblica Spin is not credible. And that's where Bible reliability fails.

And I have been trying to get a proper avatar. The Ta Phrom Stegosaur but I can't get it small enough number of MB to take. I'll keep trying.

[otseng]

It's all part of the Spin.

One thing interesting about the Bible apart from other works is admission of failures and weaknesses and embarrassing things. Practically all the chapters prior in Isaiah discusses the failures of Israel. So, it is evidence of the honesty of Isaiah. Compare this with practically any other ancient source, including the Assyrian accounts, and demonstrates the Bible has less spin compared to other sources.

[otseng]

I have a theory... ...that the writers of Exodus (and Genesis) in Babylon during the exile, trying to invent an origin for themselves and using a lot of Babylonian material, may have used a record of Ahmose I driving the Hyksos out of Egypt into Canaan and recast it as Moses leading his people into Canaan, combined with (as I say) the actual spread into the plains from the N.East. much later on - oh yes, and using the Tale of Sargon of Akkad found in the Bulrushes as an origin story for Moses. The rest of the stuff relating to the imposition of the books of Law and the rites of the tribal god that didn't appear until later is (I argue) anachronistic material.

Most scholars also believe the Exodus account was written during the Babylonian captivity and the Exodus account was fictional/legendary.

"The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity (c. 600 BCE)"
https://time.graphics/period/347781

If it was fictional, then there should be no archaeological evidence to support the story. But, I do not believe that to be the case and there does exist archaeological evidence. Though it won't prove the Biblical accounts to be true, it does give it plausibility. The Bible could've been redacted in the Babylonian exile, but I think it would've been minor and not on the scale of making up the entire Exodus account.

The Bible says the Israelites settled in the land of Goshen.

Gen 45:8-10 (KJV)
8 So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
10 And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

In 1885 Édouard Naville identified Goshen as the 20th nome of Egypt, located in the eastern Delta, and known as "Gesem" or "Kesem" during the Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt (672–525 BC). It covered the western end of the Wadi Tumilat, the eastern end being the district of Succoth, which had Pithom as its main town, extended north as far as the ruins of Pi-Ramesses (the "land of Rameses"), and included both crop land and grazing land

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen

The archaeological site Tell El-Dab'a is located in the land of Goshen.

Tell el-Dab'a is an archaeological site in the Nile Delta region of Egypt where Avaris, the capital city of the Hyksos, once stood. Avaris was occupied by Asiatics from the end of the 12th through the 13th Dynasty (early second millennium BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_El-Dab%27a

Though the residents cannot be directly traced as "Israelites", they can be linked as Canaanites.

"Excavations have discovered buildings, namely residences, tombs, and temples, that combine Egyptian and Canaanite architectural styles."

"The tomb styles and methods used to bury the dead in Tell el-Dab’a were Canaanite."

"Excavations at Tell el-Dab’a have uncovered temples that date to the Hyksos period. The temples exhibit Egyptian and Canaanite styles."

[TRANSPONDER]

It's all part of the Spin.

One thing interesting about the Bible apart from other works is admission of failures and weaknesses and embarrassing things. Practically all the chapters prior in Isaiah discusses the failures of Israel. So, it is evidence of the honesty of Isaiah. Compare this with practically any other ancient source, including the Assyrian accounts, and demonstrates the Bible has less spin compared to other sources.

I don't give the Bible any credit for that whatsoever for berating anyone who doesn't toe the Yahweist party line any more than Trumpists slagging off those who don't follow a particular fanatical branch as not Real Republicans.

That's quite apart from excusing when Yahweh doesn't save them from a beating by saying they sinned or backslid. I see that as dishonesty rather than honesty.

I have a theory... ...that the writers of Exodus (and Genesis) in Babylon during the exile, trying to invent an origin for themselves and using a lot of Babylonian material, may have used a record of Ahmose I driving the Hyksos out of Egypt into Canaan and recast it as Moses leading his people into Canaan, combined with (as I say) the actual spread into the plains from the N.East. much later on - oh yes, and using the Tale of Sargon of Akkad found in the Bulrushes as an origin story for Moses. The rest of the stuff relating to the imposition of the books of Law and the rites of the tribal god that didn't appear until later is (I argue) anachronistic material.

Most scholars also believe the Exodus account was written during the Babylonian captivity and the Exodus account was fictional/legendary.

"The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity (c. 600 BCE)"
https://time.graphics/period/347781

If it was fictional, then there should be no archaeological evidence to support the story. But, I do not believe that to be the case and there does exist archaeological evidence. Though it won't prove the Biblical accounts to be true, it does give it plausibility. The Bible could've been redacted in the Babylonian exile, but I think it would've been minor and not on the scale of making up the entire Exodus account.

The Bible says the Israelites settled in the land of Goshen.

Gen 45:8-10 (KJV)
8 So now [it was] not you [that] sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
10 And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

In 1885 Édouard Naville identified Goshen as the 20th nome of Egypt, located in the eastern Delta, and known as "Gesem" or "Kesem" during the Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt (672–525 BC). It covered the western end of the Wadi Tumilat, the eastern end being the district of Succoth, which had Pithom as its main town, extended north as far as the ruins of Pi-Ramesses (the "land of Rameses"), and included both crop land and grazing land

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Goshen

The archaeological site Tell El-Dab'a is located in the land of Goshen.

Tell el-Dab'a is an archaeological site in the Nile Delta region of Egypt where Avaris, the capital city of the Hyksos, once stood. Avaris was occupied by Asiatics from the end of the 12th through the 13th Dynasty (early second millennium BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_El-Dab%27a

Though the residents cannot be directly traced as "Israelites", they can be linked as Canaanites.

"Excavations have discovered buildings, namely residences, tombs, and temples, that combine Egyptian and Canaanite architectural styles."

"The tomb styles and methods used to bury the dead in Tell el-Dab’a were Canaanite."

"Excavations at Tell el-Dab’a have uncovered temples that date to the Hyksos period. The temples exhibit Egyptian and Canaanite styles."

I'm pretty sure that we are talking about the Hyksos dynasty here. As I recall (I do most of this from memory pending checking it up) this 'goshen/Khesem -area was exactly where the Hyksos 14th dynasty was, the Western Delta having Egyptian rule (15th dynasty) while the 16th and 17th dynastys were in South Egypt. Now, the Hyksos were Canaanite and were long before Israel even appeared, were long before the proposed date of the Exodus, were ruled by Hyksos kings, which hardly fits with enslaved Israelites and followed Egyptian religion, though a couple of the later kings had semitic names (1).

Now, it will be interesting to check whether Goshen/Khesem was a place where Israelites could settle at any time, or whether it was a name specifically related to the Hyksos dynasty, in which case it pretty much confirms my 'suspicion' that the Exodus was loosely based on the Hyksos being driven out of Egypt into Canaan. You may be up for a nomination for 'contribition to atheist apologetics' award.

(1) like Jacob, which you can imagine, sens the Bible apologists hoping about, claiming a win. They also point out to 'proto -Hebrew' in ostracon in the Sinai, though this turns out to be the notes of Canaanite immigrant workers at the turquoise mines owned by the Egyptians (Yes they owned Sinai at the time) and the Hebrews simply adopted Canaanite script. Canaanites in Egypt are not to be seen as Hebrews.

[TRANSPONDER]

A bit more. Wiki..

"In 1885 Édouard Naville identified Goshen as the 20th nome of Egypt, located in the eastern Delta, and known as "Gesem" or "Kesem" during the Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt (672–525 BC). It covered the western end of the Wadi Tumilat, the eastern end being the district of Succoth, which had Pithom as its main town, extended north as far as the ruins of Pi-Ramesses (the "land of Rameses"), and included both crop land and grazing land."

Well, that, while pointing to Ramesses and his capital (Pi - Ramesh) rather than the Hyksos and Ahmose i, it gives a nice Exile - date (as you said, many claim an Exile - date, but Bible apologists don't, in my experience, care for that) for the usage. Of course, while clobberring any authorship by Moses (did anyone really believe that?) it comes down to reporting reliable history. I'd love to relate the Exodus to the Hyksos wars and Ahmose, but there's no link other than to make it seem unworkable as any other historical scenario.

[otseng]

I'm pretty sure that we are talking about the Hyksos dynasty here.

As I mentioned, "Avaris was occupied by Asiatics from the end of the 12th through the 13th Dynasty". This is prior to the Hyksos dynasty, which is the 15th dynasty.

"Hyksos (/ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian ḥqꜣ(w)-ḫꜣswt, Egyptological pronunciation: hekau khasut,[4] "ruler(s) of foreign lands"; Ancient Greek: Ὑκσώς, Ὑξώς) is a term which, in modern Egyptology, designates the kings of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt[5] (fl. c. 1650–1550 BC)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

Now, the Hyksos were Canaanite and were long before Israel even appeared, were long before the proposed date of the Exodus, were ruled by Hyksos kings, which hardly fits with enslaved Israelites and followed Egyptian religion, though a couple of the later kings had semitic names (1).

Actually, it lines up remarkably well with the chronology of the Bible. I'll get into all that later.

[otseng]

Another interesting find in Tell El-Dab'a is the four-room house. The four-room house is also known as an "Israelite house".



"A four-room house, also known as an "Israelite house" or a "pillared house" is the name given to the mud and stone houses characteristic of the Iron Age of Levant."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_room_house

The house was found by the Austrian archaeologist Manfred Bietak, who is directing a major excavation of Tell el-Dab’a in the eastern Nile Delta. Most scholars believe this site is the Biblical city of Ra’amses, where the Israelites were forced to make bricks for pharaoh (Exodus 1:14). Bietak did not find this Israelite house in his own dig, however, nor did he find it by excavating. He discovered it in a careful study of the report of a dig at Thebes conducted in the 1930s by the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. There he found a drawing of the plan of a house that completely differed from adjacent Egyptian houses. In Bietak’s words, “The layout of this building bears no similarity to any of the Egyptian house types in the New Kingdom.” Instead, “The arrangement of the rooms bears … a high degree of similarity to the so-called Iron Age Four-Room house of Palestine.”

https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-arc ... iew/19/4/8

"Identified with Avaris (modern day archaeological site of Tel el-Daba), remains of 4-Room Houses were also excavated. The city of Avaris was the capital of the Hyksos domain in the north of Egypt; it was excavated by Egyptologist Manfred Bietak. Remains of a number of 4-room dwellings were also discovered during the archaeological excavations."
https://madainproject.com/four_room_house

"The most striking aspect of the house is that the floor plan is identical to the Israelite “four-room house” of the later Iron Age in Palestine (Holladay 1992a). In this type of house two side rooms and a back room were arranged around a central space, or courtyard. In Palestine, the side rooms were usually delineated by stone columns. With the scarcity of stone in Egypt, this feature would not be expected."
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/p ... s-in-egypt

[TRANSPONDER]

I'm pretty sure that we are talking about the Hyksos dynasty here.

As I mentioned, "Avaris was occupied by Asiatics from the end of the 12th through the 13th Dynasty". This is prior to the Hyksos dynasty, which is the 15th dynasty.

"Hyksos (/ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian ḥqꜣ(w)-ḫꜣswt, Egyptological pronunciation: hekau khasut,[4] "ruler(s) of foreign lands"; Ancient Greek: Ὑκσώς, Ὑξώς) is a term which, in modern Egyptology, designates the kings of the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt[5] (fl. c. 1650–1550 BC)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

Now, the Hyksos were Canaanite and were long before Israel even appeared, were long before the proposed date of the Exodus, were ruled by Hyksos kings, which hardly fits with enslaved Israelites and followed Egyptian religion, though a couple of the later kings had semitic names (1).

Actually, it lines up remarkably well with the chronology of the Bible. I'll get into all that later.

You have to understand that the Hyksos dynasty (15th rather than 14th) didn't fall out of the sky. It was Canaanites moving in and doing well for themselves, getting into politics and eventually setting up their own dynasty. I'll be interested to see your chronology. Especially whether you place the Exodus at the start of the New Kingdom when the Hyksos got kicked out or whether you opt for the time of the Ramessids.

Another interesting find in Tell El-Dab'a is the four-room house. The four-room house is also known as an "Israelite house".



"A four-room house, also known as an "Israelite house" or a "pillared house" is the name given to the mud and stone houses characteristic of the Iron Age of Levant."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_room_house

The house was found by the Austrian archaeologist Manfred Bietak, who is directing a major excavation of Tell el-Dab’a in the eastern Nile Delta. Most scholars believe this site is the Biblical city of Ra’amses, where the Israelites were forced to make bricks for pharaoh (Exodus 1:14). Bietak did not find this Israelite house in his own dig, however, nor did he find it by excavating. He discovered it in a careful study of the report of a dig at Thebes conducted in the 1930s by the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. There he found a drawing of the plan of a house that completely differed from adjacent Egyptian houses. In Bietak’s words, “The layout of this building bears no similarity to any of the Egyptian house types in the New Kingdom.” Instead, “The arrangement of the rooms bears … a high degree of similarity to the so-called Iron Age Four-Room house of Palestine.”

https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-arc ... iew/19/4/8

"Identified with Avaris (modern day archaeological site of Tel el-Daba), remains of 4-Room Houses were also excavated. The city of Avaris was the capital of the Hyksos domain in the north of Egypt; it was excavated by Egyptologist Manfred Bietak. Remains of a number of 4-room dwellings were also discovered during the archaeological excavations."
https://madainproject.com/four_room_house

"The most striking aspect of the house is that the floor plan is identical to the Israelite “four-room house” of the later Iron Age in Palestine (Holladay 1992a). In this type of house two side rooms and a back room were arranged around a central space, or courtyard. In Palestine, the side rooms were usually delineated by stone columns. With the scarcity of stone in Egypt, this feature would not be expected."
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/p ... s-in-egypt

This is all a bit odd. First we find a four room house in Thebes, the capital of the non - Hyksos dynasties. And by shortage of stone in Egypt (which is hilarious) I suppose he means in the Delta. Especially at a time when trade with upper Egypt might have been interrupted by hostilities. And the 'Late Iron Age house in Palestine (Philistia) shouldn't be taken in isolation. If this is a feature of Canaanite architecture, why wouldn't it be found in the delta when the Hyksos occupied it? It';s the old business of pointing to the Canaanites in Egypt and claiming them to be Hebrews, when the Hebrews hadn't appeared on the scene yet.

This is the danger of 'Bliblical archaeology' - instead to telling us what the archaeology says, the agenda is to try to make it fit the Bible. It is not unlike trying to fiddle other science to fit the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

I tried to compare Egyptian houses with Hyksos but you have the advantage of being able to access Biblical propaganda sites like 'Biblical Archaeology' while I have no sites intended to refute their claims. So unless I access a dozen excavation reports, I can't compare Egyptian, Hyksos and Iron age levant house - plans. But I did note that the Palace at Avaris had 4 burials in it which sounds heathen - Canaanite rather than Hebrew. Also a Semitic kingdom making war on the Egyptians and for a while conquering all Egypt simply doesn't match the Biblical narrative. Unless (and I saw that one other person had the same idea) the history of the Hykson 'inspired' (I say it was hi - jacked) to invent the Exodus story, when the Hyksos were nothing to do with the Hebrews or israel. They were Canaanites, not Israelites.

It might be worth looking into their kings (originally with Egyptian names but later on, semitic) and religion, which was originally Egyptian, though I believe they worshipped Set, which might shed some light on this serpent banner thing associated with Moses.

[otseng]

You have to understand that the Hyksos dynasty (15th rather than 14th) didn't fall out of the sky. It was Canaanites moving in and doing well for themselves, getting into politics and eventually setting up their own dynasty.

Yes, that's exactly how it happened in both the archaeological record and the Biblical record. I'm progressing chronologically starting in the 12th dynasty with Semites starting to come into Egypt, in particular in the land of Goshen. I have not gotten to the 15th dynasty yet.

If this is a feature of Canaanite architecture, why wouldn't it be found in the delta when the Hyksos occupied it?

I present it simply as further evidence the Hyksos were from Canaan.

This is the danger of 'Bliblical archaeology' - instead to telling us what the archaeology says, the agenda is to try to make it fit the Bible. It is not unlike trying to fiddle other science to fit the Bible.

As I've been researching Egyptology, I've actually seen more of the opposite. Evidence is suppressed or distorted if it happens to support anything related to the Bible.

But I did note that the Palace at Avaris had 4 burials in it which sounds heathen - Canaanite rather than Hebrew.

That is not surprising. Moses did not come on the scene until later, so they did not have a fully developed Hebraic religion. Most of the Semites that entered Goshen probably were "heathen" as well.