How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1511

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to otseng in post #1514]
Likewise, if light bends because of space-time fabric distortions, we would not be able to see a clear image of distant objects. But, as the Hubble and Webb telescopes reveal, we do see clear images of the remotest objects. The only way the expansion of space-time fabric could allow for clear images is that the expansion was perfectly uniform down to the last location of each subatomic particle in the universe and expanding at exactly the same rate with zero deviation.
Refraction requires an atmosphere (like the desert image, or a Fata Morgana), and the space between distant objects in deep space is a high vacuum and nearly constant (very low) temperatures. So no refraction effects would be expected no matter the situation with spacetime expanding. The Webb images (fortunately) don't have to deal with refraction like an Earth-based telescope does, and those effects vanish entirely (as with Hubble as well).
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1512

Post by otseng »

DrNoGods wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:27 pm Refraction requires an atmosphere (like the desert image, or a Fata Morgana), and the space between distant objects in deep space is a high vacuum and nearly constant (very low) temperatures. So no refraction effects would be expected no matter the situation with spacetime expanding. The Webb images (fortunately) don't have to deal with refraction like an Earth-based telescope does, and those effects vanish entirely (as with Hubble as well).
Right, I'm not saying light is being bent in space because of temperature differences, but because of the space-time fabric expansion.
otseng wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:46 am Likewise, if light bends because of space-time fabric distortions, we would not be able to see a clear image of distant objects. But, as the Hubble and Webb telescopes reveal, we do see clear images of the remotest objects.
Let's consider expansion of the space-time fabric due to gravity. Gravity affects the distortion of the space-time fabric and causes light to bend.

Image

If the space-time fabric was not expanding at all points at equal rates, wouldn't light bend because of the curvature of the space-time fabric? If the expansion was not uniform, then it would not be flat, but would have a "rough surface" and lead to "refraction" effects.

Here's another example of light bending due to gravitational lensing.

Image

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1513

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to otseng in post #1516]
If the space-time fabric was not expanding at all points at equal rates, wouldn't light bend because of the curvature of the space-time fabric? If the expansion was not uniform, then it would not be flat, but would have a "rough surface" and lead to "refraction" effects.

Here's another example of light bending due to gravitational lensing.
Laser Focus World recently did a short article on gravitational lensing and Hubble/Webb:

https://www.laserfocusworld.com/test-me ... e-universe

It is certainly a real thing and has been known for a long time now. But for anything in our own galaxy like the "Pillars of Creation" (PoC) in the Eagle Nebula (~6,500 light years away) there would be no lensing effects. The apparent locations of individual stars can shift very slightly (as the Eddington eclipse observations back in 1919 first showed) but these effects are small even for light passing by our own star. There is also so-called millilensing and microlensing:

https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/ ... 35/1034335

But lensing like this is achromatic (not dependent on wavelength). Refraction is very dependent on wavelength (linearly) so can be distinguished from a pure lensing effect by using different wavelength regions and spectral features.

Another point to note on the Hubble and Webb PoC images, and others. There are different tracking and observation times for different images, but they are all collected over a relatively short period of time (few hours max, some minutes or seconds) so are just snapshots of the object as it existed during that brief observational time (in the case of PoC ... ~6,500 years ago). This is too short of time for the features to change during the observation. The stars between PoC and Earth are tiny compared to the feature sizes in PoC (the "pillars" are light years across). So you'd expect a very clear image from Webb for a brief snapshot of PoC (or anything in our own galaxy). For distant galaxies, lensing can be a big effect.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1514

Post by otseng »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:37 am It is certainly a real thing and has been known for a long time now. But for anything in our own galaxy like the "Pillars of Creation" (PoC) in the Eagle Nebula (~6,500 light years away) there would be no lensing effects. The apparent locations of individual stars can shift very slightly (as the Eddington eclipse observations back in 1919 first showed) but these effects are small even for light passing by our own star. There is also so-called millilensing and microlensing.
As mentioned earlier, the model to explain light bending is curvature of the space-time fabric. So, the question is, if the space-time fabric was expanding non-uniformly so that the entire fabric was "bumpy", how would it impact our view of distant objects?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1515

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to otseng in post #1518]
As mentioned earlier, the model to explain light bending is curvature of the space-time fabric. So, the question is, if the space-time fabric was expanding non-uniformly so that the entire fabric was "bumpy", how would it impact our view of distant objects?
I'm no theoretical physicist, but I believe the current view is that the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions (eg. from analysis of CMB, as here), but the expansion rate has increased over time. As spacetime expands it carries its contents (eg. galaxies) with it (like the common balloon analogy of expanding spacetime). If the expansion is indeed uniform in all directions, there would be no "bumps" in spacetime on large scales.

But by "bumpy" do you mean the bending of light in the vicinity of massive objects so that it would take a nonlinear path from the source emission to our telescopes here on Earth (or nearby Earth as they all are now)? So a single photon from a distant source would "zig zag" its way to Earth and distort the distant objects true shape. We know that gravitational lensing does this, but for smaller items like stars or black holes I suppose it would strongly depend on exactly what items were between the distant emitter and Earth, within the telescope field of view, and how large they were compared to the object being imaged.

In the case of the "Pillars of Creation" (PoC), those features are gigantic (>5 light years across) compared to any indivdual star between Earth and the PoC (eg. our sun is only about 4.5 light seconds in diameter or 0.14 millionths of a light year). It is negligible compared to the distant feature being imaged, so any stars between Earth and PoC (and there are presumably many of them within the Webb field of view) would probably not impact our imaging of PoC on the scales that we see it in.

I don't know how many pixels are in the published Webb images of PoC, but would guess that the closest stars between Webb and PoC might not register even a pixel, and more distant stars appear much larger than they really are due to the divergence of the light from the star (so they can register a pixel or many more as seen in the images if they are bright enough). The bending of light by each star in the direct line of sight would be miniscule compared to the apparent diameter of a star in the images, so I'd think any "bumpiness" of this type would not impact the images of objects "behind" stars until you get to the scale of having galaxies in the way ... in which case gravitational lensing would come into play.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1516

Post by otseng »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:16 pm I'm no theoretical physicist, but I believe the current view is that the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions (eg. from analysis of CMB, as here), but the expansion rate has increased over time. As spacetime expands it carries its contents (eg. galaxies) with it (like the common balloon analogy of expanding spacetime). If the expansion is indeed uniform in all directions, there would be no "bumps" in spacetime on large scales.

But by "bumpy" do you mean the bending of light in the vicinity of massive objects so that it would take a nonlinear path from the source emission to our telescopes here on Earth (or nearby Earth as they all are now)?
No, I'm not talking about distortions in the space-time fabric due to objects in the universe, but due to the expansion of the space-time fabric. As you mentioned, as "spacetime expands it carries its contents". The spacetime is expanding at every point in the universe. If each point in the spacetime is not expanding at exactly the same rate, the spacetime fabric would have distortions in it and light would not travel straight.

Let's do a hypothetical experiment. Suppose the universe has no objects in it except for one light source at position A and one observer at position Z. Light is emitted from A and travels to Z. It has to go through points B, C, ... Y. Each point in between is expanding 3 dimensionally and as it expands it "carries its contents" and would affect the light that is traveling through each point. Suppose each point B - Y is not expanding at the same rate. It would carry the light and deflect it from its path at each point. So, light would not be traveling in a straight line. Now suppose points B - Y are expanding at the exact same rate. Only then would light would be traveling in a straight line.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1517

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to otseng in post #1520]
If each point in the spacetime is not expanding at exactly the same rate, the spacetime fabric would have distortions in it and light would not travel straight.

Let's do a hypothetical experiment. Suppose the universe has no objects in it except for one light source at position A and one observer at position Z. Light is emitted from A and travels to Z. It has to go through points B, C, ... Y. Each point in between is expanding 3 dimensionally and as it expands it "carries its contents" and would affect the light that is traveling through each point. Suppose each point B - Y is not expanding at the same rate. It would carry the light and deflect it from its path at each point. So, light would not be traveling in a straight line. Now suppose points B - Y are expanding at the exact same rate. Only then would light would be traveling in a straight line.
My understanding of the current consensus is that at any given instant in time spacetime is expanding at a constant rate uniformly in all directions, but this rate is slowly accelerating as time goes by. If a telescope makes an observation of a distant galaxy, say 1 billion light years away, and it tracks the object for hours or even days to get the final image, that is such a miniscule observation time that as far as the image is concerned spacetime was uniformly expanding everywhere and could not have different expansion rates at B - Y during the (essentially instant) snapshot the telescope makes. If you come back in a million years and make the same observation, the expansion rate has increased and the galaxy is farther away, and that would mean a different redshift value for it in the future observation.

Cosmological redshift is the result of the expansion of spacetime, and the more distant the object the older it is and the higher the redshift (or "z" value). The light reaching Earth from the object is "stretched" in wavelength as it fights against the spacetime expansion, sort of like walking up a downward moving escalator. I think for the scenario you describe you'd need to make the telescopic observation over such a long period that there would be a change in the spacetime expansion rate during the collection of the image, so that it was a composite over different redshift values.

The latest value for the Hubble constant is 74 kilometers (46 miles) per second per megaparsec (3.26 million light years). It might take some number crunching to work out the impact on a telecope image in the visible, near-IR, or IR (Webb) if the telescope could track an object for centuries. But comparing the early Hubble images of PoC (1995) to the latest Webb images (2022), it appears that the emissions we're looking at that originated 6,500 years ago have not changed in any significant way due to the slghtly increased rate of spacetime expansion over 37 years.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1518

Post by otseng »

DrNoGods wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:03 pm My understanding of the current consensus is that at any given instant in time spacetime is expanding at a constant rate uniformly in all directions
That is my understanding as well. And my argument is that this would be impossible, at least impossible with our understanding of physics as I explained before:
otseng wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:46 am The only way the expansion of space-time fabric could allow for clear images is that the expansion was perfectly uniform down to the last location of each subatomic particle in the universe and expanding at exactly the same rate with zero deviation. This would be impossible. It would mean information would have to move instantaneously to all points of the universe simultaneously. This information is not only moving faster than light, it would be moving at infinite speed.
If the space-time fabric was expanding, it would be more likely it would be expanding non-uniformly. And I can't imagine the level of fine-tuning required to cause every subatomic particle location in the entire universe to be exactly expanding at the same rate with zero deviation.

But, another major problem is there is no evidence the space-time fabric actually exists. Rather, it is only a mathematical model. Here's what I posted:
otseng wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:46 am 1. The space-time fabric is a model. It is not something that actually exists.
otseng wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:13 pm But, though we can model and understand space-time as a "fabric", it does not mean there is actually a "fabric". It is only a mathematical model.
When Einstein concocted his general theory of relativity, one of the great advances was to recognize that space and time were combined into a single entity: spacetime. Another was that the presence of matter and energy curved the very fabric of this spacetime, and that curved spacetime, in turn, dictated how matter moved.

As ubiquitous as pictures of bent sheets or coordinate systems are, they aren't exactly reflective of the reality we inhabit.

But under no circumstances should you conceive of space as though it's a material, physical thing; it isn't. This is only a mathematical structure that we can write down equations to describe: the equations of Einstein's General Relativity. The fact that matter and radiation respond to that curvature in the exact ways that the equations predict validates this theory, but it doesn't mean that space is actually a fabric.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 41bf5f97fc

"The space time fabric is a mathematical abstraction which doesn't exist as such."
https://socratic.org/questions/what-is- ... made-up-of
In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that combines the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. Spacetime diagrams can be used to visualize relativistic effects, such as why different observers perceive differently where and when events occur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1519

Post by JoeyKnothead »

What I'm seeing in this thread is an amazement that things act according to their properties, then a jump to concluding a god somehow made all we see.

This is faulty, in that what we do see is that humans have a history of concocting gods for all manner of things, up to the point where now it's proposed we have us a god derived from, or composed of the properties of all gods before. Why? As old gods are shown less than needful, as in harvest gods and such, those properties are passed up the chain of gods, until ultimately we get a single god responsible for everything.

Notice we've seen claims of being the center of a universe where the 'center' may be off by billions of miles. How to fix that? Reduce that number, those billions of miles, to a percentage. The old god doesn't work, so a new one is created.

This is the problem we have when claims of gods are made. They're nigh on irrefutable because gods are 'ether', 'spiritual', and not bound to the very laws we place on the universe, as in ages, 'creations', and such.

So the theist must carry on as if all these 'explanations' are apt, up until science comes along and finds the real explanation.

How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant is the wrong wrong question.

The better question is how come we trust it when it's so obviously errant?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1520

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to otseng in post #1522]
The only way the expansion of space-time fabric could allow for clear images is that the expansion was perfectly uniform down to the last location of each subatomic particle in the universe and expanding at exactly the same rate with zero deviation.
Why would this be the case? The universe is mostly empty as far as physical matter, with an average density of just 5e-30 g/cm^3 (eg. Here). The intergalactic medium is far less at only about 1 atom per cubic meter (eg. [url=https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/research/to ... tic-medium]Here[/url). Spacetime pervades the universe but isn't "made" of anything. The matter that is embedded in space is the only thing we can take images of, and with telescopes that is limited to only very large things ... very large. For us to get clear images of galaxies and distance objects it is only necessary to have a short observation time relative to the time period required for the object to change in some way.

Of course, you could argue that when we see an image of PoC in 1995 with Hubble, and a higher resolution version in 2022 with Webb, that both are misrepresentations of what is actually there 6,500 light years away. If there was some mechanism for the light we're capturing to be distorted in some way between PoC and here, during the minutes or hours of the observation (anything outside of that observation window is irrelevant as far as the image itself), we'd have no way of knowing it. All we can say is that over the 37 years for this example there is no apparent change in the light patterns reaching our solar system from PoC, so most likely the imaged object is changing so slowly as far as its emissions that 37 years isn't enough to matter.

But I don't see why any expansion would have to be perfectly uniform down to subatomic particle scales just to get clear images using telecopes which only can see giant objects like stars and galaxies at great distances. These are all riding along with the spacetime expansion at time scales that are gigantic compared to the time needed to record an image from a telescope. The telescope image is just an instantaneous snapshop in comparison. It is like taking a camera photo of a car moving down a highway with a shutter speed of 1 microsecond ... the car would appear to be dead still on that scale.
But, another major problem is there is no evidence the space-time fabric actually exists. Rather, it is only a mathematical model.
Yes ... but how does that relate to being able to get clear images of distant objects? Those objects exist as physical things as proven by the images, and from redshifts and other information across millions of distant objects we see a pattern of everything moving away from us, and the farther away the object is the faster it is moving away on large scales (Andromeda is moving towards the Milky Way, which is itself another piece of the puzzle showing that for closer objects gravity can dominate the movements). Whether these objects exist in something called spacetime, or in some other possible description of the "thing" the universe's contents exist in, their movement is on such large time frames compared to the time needed to acquire an image from a telescope that it may not matter whether the expansion were uniform or not ... we'd still get a clear image.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

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