How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[otseng]

I'll jump right on all of this, immediately after I visit the 'Creation Museum' and "Ark Encounter" and attempt to dispute all of their claims. (https://answersingenesis.org/)

Case/point being, your posts about the TS are no longer worthy of investigation, or to even be taken seriously.

And again, no rational counterargument presented.

[otseng]

The first evidence that predates 1350 is the Pray codex.

The Pray Codex, also called Codex Pray or The Hungarian Pray Manuscript, is a collection of medieval manuscripts, dated to the late 12th to early 13th centuries. In 1813 it was named after György Pray, who discovered it in 1770. It is the first known example of continuous prose text in Hungarian. The Codex is kept in the National Széchényi Library of Budapest.

One of the most well-known documents within the Codex (f. 154a) is the Funeral Sermon and Prayer (Hungarian: Halotti beszéd és könyörgés). It is an old handwritten Hungarian text dating to 1192-1195. The importance of the Funeral Sermon comes from its being the oldest surviving Hungarian, and Uralic, text.

The Codex also features a missal, an Easter mystery play, songs with musical notation, laws from the time of Coloman of Hungary and the annals, which list the Hungarian kings.

One of the five illustrations within the Codex shows the body of Jesus being prepared for burial, and also the subsequent Resurrection of Jesus, with an angel showing the empty tomb to the Three Ladies. This illustration shows generic similarities with the Shroud of Turin: Jesus is shown entirely naked with the arms on the pelvis, as in the body image of the Shroud of Turin; the thumbs on the image appear to be retracted, with only four fingers visible on each hand, matching the detail on the Turin Shroud; the supposed fabric shows a herringbone pattern, similar to the weaving pattern of the Shroud; and the four tiny circles on the lower image, which appear to form a letter L, "perfectly reproduce four apparent "poker holes" on the Turin Shroud", which likewise appear to form a letter L. Critics of this idea consider this item to be a rectangular tombstone as seen on other sacred images, and say that the alleged holes are just decorative elements, as seen on the angel's wing and on various items of clothing; that the alleged shroud shows no image of a man, and that a wadded up cloth lies discarded on the tombstone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pray_Codex

The book is 9.4" tall by 5.9" wide.

In a vault at the National Széchényi Library in Budapest, Hungary,
lies an old medieval collection of manuscripts from the closing years of
the 12th century, made into a book in the early 1200s. It consists of 175
parchment folios, about 24cm high and 15cm across, written on both sides
almost entirely in Latin, but is particularly celebrated for containing the
earliest piece of continuous prose in Hungarian, a funeral oration (Sermo
super Sepulchrum) and prayer.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n84part4.pdf

The picture is obviously highly stylized, but it has several matching features with the TS:

- Nude body
- Hands crossed over
- Hands over pelvis
- No thumbs
- Long hair
- Long nose
- Blood mark on forehead
- Shroud
- Herringbone weave
- Blood stains symbolized by red crosses
- Pair of poker hole patterns
- Blood belt
- Facecloth

Full size scanned image is at:
http://mek.oszk.hu/12800/12855/html/hu_ ... _0062.html

Since the codex is from Hungary, the TS most likely would've been in the vicinity of Eastern Europe around this time.

The poker holes indicate these burn holes were created before 1192.

The dating of the Pray codex is 1192-1195, so obviously this also challenges the 1988 C-14 dating of 1260-1390.

[POI]

I'll jump right on all of this, immediately after I visit the 'Creation Museum' and "Ark Encounter" and attempt to dispute all of their claims. (https://answersingenesis.org/)

Case/point being, your posts about the TS are no longer worthy of investigation, or to even be taken seriously.

And again, no rational counterargument presented.

AIG & DI says the same thing

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #2442

The picture is obviously highly stylized

.....like the image on the Turin cloth itself.

[POI]

I'll jump right on all of this, immediately after I visit the 'Creation Museum' and "Ark Encounter" and attempt to dispute all of their claims. (https://answersingenesis.org/)

Case/point being, your posts about the TS are no longer worthy of investigation, or to even be taken seriously.

And again, no rational counterargument presented.

AIG & DI could not say it better themselves

[otseng]

During the Fourth Crusade, a knight, Robert de Clari, wrote about what he experienced in "History of Those Who Conquered
Constantinople". Full text translation is available here.

de Clari is one of two primary sources that we use to understand the Fourth Crusade.

The two major western sources for the Fourth Crusade are Villehardouin's account and that of Robert de Clari. Villehardouin was part of the leadership of the Crusade, while de Clari was a much lower level knight.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/clari1.asp

He was a simple and poor knight that wrote from the perspective of a regular in the army.

Who was Robert de Clari? A simple knight of the Amienois, vassal of Pierre of Amiens.
He was very poor, possessing a bare fraction over 16 acres of land in the region of
Peronne. His chronicle reflects a youthful personality, cultured, inquisitive, intelligent, of
a bright disposition — and religious. 6 When Innocent III appealed for soldiers to deliver
the Holy Land from the infidel, Clari took the Cross and departed with his liege lord. This
was the Fourth Crusade, destination Palestine; but under pressure from the Venetians,
who supplied the transport, the expedition set sail for Constantinople.
Clari narrates the events of that expedition from the point of view of those in the ranks.
Counting himself, several times, among the "poor knights of the army", he never
presumes to communicate what went on in the councils of the leaders nor on the plan of
operations. He reports only what everyone in the army could know, being informed by
proclamations in general assembly.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi04part5.pdf

Though the Fourth Crusade capturing Constantinople occurred in 1204, he also wrote about events up until 1216. We are not sure how much longer after that he wrote his book.

Robert of Clari was a knight from Picardy who took part in the Fourth Crusade, which ended with the capture of Constantinople in 1204. Robert seems to have returned to France in 1205, since although his work contains references up to the date of 1216, the events between 1205 and 1216 are summed up very briefly in what serves almost as an epilogue to his story. His chronicle is one of the few accounts we have where we see military events being discussed from the point of view of an ordinary soldier.

https://deremilitari.org/2014/01/robert ... h-crusade/

de Clari mentions a shroud with the figure of Jesus on it being raised every Friday.

Robert may be one of the few documented witnesses to the Shroud of Turin before 1358. He reports (1203) that the cloth was in Constantinople, in the church of Blachernae: "Where there was the Shroud in which our Lord had been wrapped, which every Friday raised itself upright so one could see the figure of our Lord on it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Clari

Out of all the magnificent things in the city, in this passage he specifically called out this item and also mentions nobody knew what happened to this sindon after the sack of Constantinople.

... about the other marvels that are there [in Constantinople], we shall leave off telling you;
for no man on earth, however long he might live in the city, could number them or recount
them to you, if any one should recount to you the hundredth part of the richness and the
beauty and the splendor [lit. nobility] which was in the abbeys and the churches and in the
palaces and in the city, it would seem that it were a lie and you would not believe. And
among those other there was another church [lit. another of the churches] which was called
My Lady Saint Mary of Blachernae , where there was the SYDOINES in which, [lit. where]
Our Lord had been wrapped, which every Friday, raised itself upright, so that one could see
the form of our Lord on it [lit. there], and no one, either Greek or French, ever knew what
became of this SYNDOINES when the city was taken.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi02part5.pdf

Of the other Greeks – the high, the lowly, the poor, the rich; of the greatness of the city, of the palaces, and of the other wonders which are therein – will we forbear to tell you further; for no earthly man, though he abode never so long in that city, could number or relate all this to you. And if he were to describe to you the hundredth part of the riches and the beauty and the magnificence which were to be found in the abbeys and in the minsters and in the palaces and in the city itself, it would seem that he was a liar, nor would ye believe him at all.

But among the rest, there was also another of the minsters, which was called the Church of my Lady Saint Mary of Blachernae, within which was the shroud wherein Our Lord was wrapped. And on every Friday that shroud did raise itself upright, so that the form of Our Lord could clearly be seen. And none knows – neither Greek nor Frank – what became of that shroud when the city was taken.

https://deremilitari.org/2014/01/robert ... h-crusade/

[otseng]

A common motif, particularly in Byzantine and Medieval art, is the Man of Sorrows. It sometimes has Jesus in a "box". This motif has been popular throughout history.


https://www.ebyzantinemuseum.gr/?i=bxm. ... bit&id=214

This motif originated from the Byzantine Epitaphios which dates back to possibly 8th century.

The image developed from the Byzantine epitaphios image, which possibly dates back to the 8th century. A miraculous Byzantine mosaic icon of it is known as the Imago Pietatis or Christ of Pity. The work appears to have been brought to the major pilgrimage church of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome in the 12th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Sorrows


https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/211510

The Eiptaphaios ("above the tomb") is an icon on a large cloth with the image of Jesus on it.

The Epitaphios (Greek: Ἐπιτάφιος, epitáphios, or Ἐπιτάφιον, epitáphion, meaning "above the tomb"; Slavonic: Плащаница, plashchanitsa; Arabic: نعش, naash) is a Christian religious icon, typically consisting of a large, embroidered and often richly adorned cloth, bearing an image of the dead body of Christ, often accompanied by his mother and other figures, following the Gospel account. It is used during the liturgical services of Good Friday and Holy Saturday in the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches, as well as some Oriental Orthodox Churches.[citation needed] It also exists in painted or mosaic form, on wall or panel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaphios_(liturgical)


https://www.wga.hu/html_m/c/ceccarel/sorrows.html

If the TS is authentic, all these motifs most likely then originated from the Holy Shroud.

The imagery of the Man of Sorrows began in 12th-century icons in the East, where it is thought to have been modeled on the Holy Shroud, which was on display in Con­stan­tin­ople until the sack of 1204.

https://www.christianiconography.info/e ... rrows.html


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... T11658.jpg

Textual evidence relate the shroud being raised.

Two other texts are suggestive in support of a gradual raising of a cloth bearing a
full-body image such as would underlie the ritual's child-to-crucified changing display.
Nicholas Mesarites, in 1201 the overseer of the imperial relic treasury in Constantinople
and thus eyewitness, described the sindon in his care. "In this place the naked Lord
rises again [anistatai] and . . . the burial sindons can prove it [ekdelon]." 12 Two years
later, Crusader Robert of Clari reported: "In the church of Our Lady of Blachernae [the
Blachernae Palace being the more recent dwelling of the Byzantine emperors] the
sydoines [sic: singular] of Jesus stood up straight every Frida y [cascuns devenres se
drechoit tous drois] so that the figure of Our Lord could be plainly seen there."

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n56part3.pdf

STURP team leader, John Jackson, theorized they had constructed a device in Constantinople to raise the cloth from a box to gradually reveal the body of Jesus.

Physicist John Jackson identified a number of crease lines on the Shroud (lettered A-G above) during the 1978 scientific investigations. He then built a “jack-in-the-box” mechanism winding the Shroud around wooden supports that would raise it from a box consistent with Wilson’s proposed “King of Glory” ceremony in Constantinople.

More recently researchers at the Turin Shroud Center of Colorado have found physical evidence on the Shroud strongly supporting this reconstruction. Numerous old wrinkles dating to many hundreds of years ago are consistent with a folding arrangement wherein the cloth was wound around various wooden supports.

These researchers even have found tack holes pinning the cloth to those supports still visible in 1978 scientific photographs.

https://biblearchaeology.org/the-shroud ... tantinople

[otseng]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constanti ... ouchup.jpg

Constantinople was THE city during the Middle Ages in Europe.

From the mid-5th century to the early 13th century, Constantinople was the largest and wealthiest city in Europe.

As the largest and wealthiest city in Europe during the 4th–13th centuries and a center of culture and education of the Mediterranean basin, Constantinople came to be known by prestigious titles such as Basileuousa (Queen of Cities) and Megalopolis (the Great City) and was, in colloquial speech, commonly referred to as just Polis (ἡ Πόλις) 'the City' by Constantinopolitans and provincial Byzantines alike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

The city was considered to be the "Holy Chapel" to house the greatest relics.

However, the concept of a ‘Holy Chapel’, built to contain the most
sacred relics of Christendom within the residence of the most powerful Christian ruler, lived on for centuries.

By the end of the twelfth century, the church was renown as
the home of some of the most important relics of Christendom: the Mandylion of Christ,
the Holy Keramion, the Crown of Thorns, the Holy Nail, Christ’s iron collar shackle, the
linen sheets in which his body was wrapped in the tomb, the linen towel with which he
dried the apostle’s feet, the Holy Lance, Christ’s purple robe, the reed which he held in
his right hand, Christ’s leather sandals, and a piece from his tomb stone.

https://arthistory.columbia.edu/sites/d ... monies.pdf

Constantinople was impenetrable for 900 years until the Fourth Crusade.

Although besieged on numerous occasions by various armies, the defenses of Constantinople proved impenetrable for nearly nine hundred years.

In 1204, however, the armies of the Fourth Crusade took and devastated the city and, for several decades, its inhabitants resided under Latin occupation in a dwindling and depopulated city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

The timing of the Middle Ages is directly associated with the rise and fall of Constantinople. When Rome fell in 476, Constantinople remained as the only seat of the Roman government and marked the beginning of the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages ended when Constantinople fell in 1453 to the Ottoman empire.

In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages or medieval period (also spelled mediæval or mediaeval) lasted approximately from the late 5th to the late 15th centuries, similar to the post-classical period of global history. It began with the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 and transitioned into the Renaissance and the Age of Discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages

"The city was finally besieged and conquered by the Ottoman Empire in 1453, remaining under its control until the early 20th century, after which it was renamed Istanbul under the Empire's successor state, Turkey."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

[otseng]

https://smocgb.com/

Icons are an important and integral part of the Orthodox faith.

When you walk into an Orthodox Christian Church, one of the first things you might notice is that it is filled with icons.

The next time you are in a Greek Orthodox Church, consider taking the time to notice the icons. They have a special purpose and are an important part of the lives of the members of the church.

https://www.greekboston.com/religion/or ... ans-icons/


https://www.stsconstantinehelen.ny.goar ... use-of-god

Pretty much icons are everywhere in the church.

Icons play a very important role in the Orthodox Christian Faith. Beautiful, ornate hagiographic icons are described as the “windows to the kingdom of God”. Orthodox icons are used both inside the church, as an integral part of the expression of faith, as well as privately in peoples’ homes.

For the Orthodox Faith, icons are an integral part of the tradition of our Church from its establishment until today, with icons being perhaps the most characteristic feature of our churches.

https://www.christianityart.store/blogs ... an-faith-1

Icons are viewed as a way to communicate theology.

Icons have been described as “Theology written in images and colour.” Icons are not just pictures — they are sacred images, which convey spiritual truth in picture form, and are sometimes described as windows to heaven.

https://www.thegoodshepherd.org.au/iconography

Icons are to be venerated, but they are not to be worshipped. They serve only as reminders and not be idolized.

In addition to using icons to remind us of the stories, you may notice that Orthodox Christians pay their respects to them. Typically, the sign of the cross is made and the individual kisses the icon. If it is an icon of a person, the goal is to kiss the hand. If the icon is painted to show a scene or event from the Bible, the individual will kiss an arbitrary location. This is called “venerating” the icon and is done to show respect. This is not to be confused as a form of worship. We respect not the icon itself, but what the icon represents.

https://www.greekboston.com/religion/or ... ans-icons/

The Orthodox Church uses icons to assist in worship. Icons are a 'window to heaven' and they help us to focus on the divine things. While the icons still contain material aspects, like paint and colour, we are taught not to reject our physical life but instead to transform it, as was done by the holy people represented by the icons. It is important to note that the icons themselves are venerated only, not worshipped; we only worship God in the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

https://www.orthodoxmuskegon.church/ico ... g-of-icons

Icons are intentionally created to not look realistic in order to avoid worshipping them.

Typically, icons are done in a two dimensional style and are not very lifelike. This is done intentionally. Icons are created to represent Biblical events, the people of the Bible, and the saints and if they were too realistic, the concern is that they would be confused with idols, which is defined as an “object of worship” according to Webster’s Dictionary. Icons aren’t to be worshipped, they simply serve as reminders.

https://www.greekboston.com/religion/or ... ans-icons/


https://www.stantonytulsa.com/updates/s ... con-corner

All orthodox homes have an icon corner.

One of the distinguishing characteristics of an Orthodox home is its icon corner. The icon corner becomes the spiritual heart of the home–a constant reminder to pray, an intersection between the family and the greater family of saints who have gone before, a sanctuary or rest and renewal in the midst of the world.

https://www.orthodoxmotherhood.com/so-i ... on-corner/

[otseng]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chri ... ulchre.png

Christ Pantocrator is a very popular icon motif in Christianity, particularly among the Orthodox.

The most important Christian icon is Christ Pantocrator. This image portrays Jesus as the world’s sovereign ruler. Christ Pantocrator was one of the oldest images of Jesus and appears in the most prominent positions in cave churches.

https://www.cappadociahistory.com/post/ ... rtant-icon

In Christian iconography, Christ Pantocrator (Greek: Χριστὸς Παντοκράτωρ)[1] is a specific depiction of Christ. Pantocrator or Pantokrator, literally ruler of all, but usually translated as "Almighty" or "all-powerful", is derived from one of many names of God in Judaism.

The Pantokrator, largely an Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic theological conception and is less common under that name in Western Roman Catholicism.

The icon of Christ Pantokrator is one of the most common religious images of Orthodox Christianity.

The image of Christ Pantocrator was one of the first images of Christ developed in the Early Christian Church and remains a central icon of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The icon, traditionally half-length when in a semi-dome,[11] which became adopted for panel icons also, depicts Christ fully frontal with a somewhat melancholy and stern aspect, with the right hand raised in blessing or, in the early encaustic panel at Saint Catherine's Monastery, the conventional rhetorical gesture that represents teaching. The left hand holds a closed book with a richly decorated cover featuring the Cross, representing the Gospels. An icon where Christ has an open book is called "Christ the Teacher", a variant of the Pantocrator. Christ is bearded, his brown hair centrally parted, and his head is surrounded by a halo. The icon usually has a gold ground comparable to the gilded grounds of Byzantine mosaics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spas ... _sinay.jpg

Christ Pantocrator is one of the oldest motifs, dating back to the 6th century.

This is the oldest known painting of Jesus of Nazareth. It was once dated to the 1200’s, but after it was cleaned in 1962 and the original encaustic layer exposed, it was re-dated to the 500‘s under the reign of Emperor Justinian (527-565). Justinian had founded St. Catherine’s Monastery on Mt. Sinai, Egypt and it was under his reign that this type of religious iconography was first created.

The Christ Pantocrator of St. Catherine's Monastery at Sinai is one of the oldest Byzantine religious icons, dating from the 6th century AD.

It is the earliest known depiction of Jesus Christ as Pantocrator (literally ruler of all) that survives. It is regarded by historians and scholars to be one of the most important and recognizable works in the study of Byzantine art as well as Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pa ... or_(Sinai)

Most likely the only reason we have the image in St. Catherine's monastery is the remote location allowed it to escape the iconoclasms.

We owe the preservation of this Pantocrator Christ icon to the remoteness of the monastery where it resided. It was far away enough to survive the iconoclastic controversies that pervaded the Eastern Church for over 100 years, starting in the 8th century.

https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/pantoc ... epictions/

it is one of the few preiconoclast icons to survive. It was probably made in Constantinople, and sent as a gift to Mt. Sinai.

https://www.thebyzantinelegacy.com/cath ... antocrator

Prior to the 6th century, depictions of Jesus varied. Around this time, images standardized on this depiction of Jesus. Even up to this day, portraits of Jesus look like Christ Pantocrator.

Christians began to visually depict Jesus in the late 300’s, once there was no longer a threat of persecution. These early images present Jesus as a stoic figure sitting on a throne with a scroll. In the 600’s, Christ Pantocrator emerged as a simplification of that early image. The look of Christ Pantocrator has hardly changed in the last 1,500 years.

https://www.cappadociahistory.com/post/ ... rtant-icon


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jesu ... Sophia.jpg

There is another famous mosaic of the Pantocrator in the Hagia Sophia, once a church, then a mosque and now a museum, in Istanbul, Turkey. The mosaic was done in the 1260’s and the resemblance to the 500’s Pantocrator is uncanny, leading some to believe that the artist had seen or had access to the St. Catherine painting done 700 years previously.

https://earlychurchhistory.org/arts/chr ... ntocrator/

The TS explains many questions about the Christ Pantocrator motif:

- Why would the image be called "pantocrator", which means "ruler of all"? There is no depiction of anything typically associated with a ruler in the image like a crown or scepter.
- Why did art standardize on this rendition of Christ?
- How has the rendition remained relatively stable over a thousand years?
- Why all the particular features of the head? Long hair, large eyes, looking straight ahead, long nose, beard, hair falling over left shoulder, etc.
- Why is the face asymmetrical?

Analysis from Whangers claim 170 points of congruence between the TS and the St. Catherine’s Monastery image.

A good example of this new “true likeness” is St. Catherine’s Monastery’s famous 6th century encaustic (painting on wax) Christ Pantocrator. The Pantocrator, “Christ Enthroned” and sitting in majesty as ruler of the world, was an important artistic type and preferred means for depicting him at this time. Shroud researchers Dr. Alan Whanger and wife Mary developed a photo comparison technique for overlaying one picture on another and then counting the actual “points of congruence” (PC’s) between the two (see Applied Optics, 15 March 1985: 766 – 772). Applying an overlay of the Shroud face onto the St. Catherine’s Pantocrator the Whangers counted 170 PC’s, and when they expanded the search to areas around the faces of both, over 250 PC’s

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/t ... -to-edessa

More Christ Pantocrator images:
https://fineartamerica.com/art/painting ... antocrator