How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2451

Post by otseng »

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... eJeune.JPG

So, how did the TS get from Constantinople to Lirey, France?

Geoffrey de Charny had owned it in Lirey, but he never disclosed how he got it.
Even Geoffroy de Charny, owner of the Lirey-
Chambery-Turin Shroud about 1349-54, never gave any sign that he ever
heard of it. Long after his death his descendents say, vaguely, that he acquired
the Shroud as a “reward freely given.”
https://biblearchaeology.org/images/articles/p41.pdf

In the Fourth Crusade, the crusaders had stripped many relics from Constantinople.
The Fourth Crusade (1202-1204 CE) was called by Pope Innocent III (r. 1198-1216 CE) to retake Jerusalem from its current Muslim overlords. However, in a bizarre combination of cock-ups, financial constraints, and Venetian trading ambitions, the target ended up being Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire and the greatest Christian city in the world. Sacked on 12 April 1204 CE, Constantinople was stripped of its riches, relics, and artworks, and the Byzantine Empire was divided up between Venice and its allies. The Fourth Crusade thus gained its infamous reputation as the most cynical and profit-seeking of all the crusades.
https://www.worldhistory.org/Fourth_Crusade/
Three days of looting climaxed the assault. A Byzantine chronicler described the theft of holy images, destruction of relics, the ripping of jewels from chalices and use of the cups for drunken revelries.

The victors divvied up the massive loot. Among the best known souvenirs harvested by the Venetians were four bronze horses that still stand atop the door of St. Mark's Basilica in Venice. The Crusaders did not bother going on to Jerusalem. Innocent III was horrified and criticized papal representatives who abandoned the Holy Land to join in the establishment of the new "Latin" order in Constantinople. Nonetheless, Innocent accepted the outcome.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 38e8c3e6a/

Pope Innocent III wrote:
We were not a little astonished and disturbed to bear that you and our beloved son the Cardinal Priest of the Title of St. Praxida and Legate of the Apostolic See, in fear of the looming perils of the Holy Land, have left the province of Jerusalem (which, at this point is in such great need) and that you have gone by ship to Constantinople. And now we see that what we dreaded has occurred and what we feared has come to pass.... For you, who ought to have looked for help for the Holy Land, you who should have stirred up others, both by word and by example, to assist the Holy Land ­ on your own initiative you sailed to Greece, bringing in your footsteps riot only the pilgrims, but even the natives of the Holy Land who came to Constantinople, following our venerable brother, the Archbishop of Tyre. When you had deserted it, the Holy Land remained destitute of men, void of strength. Because of you, its last state was worse than the first, for all its friends deserted with you; nor was there any admirer to console it.... We ourselves were not a little agitated and, with reason, we acted against you, since you had fallen in with this counsel and because you had deserted the Land which the Lord consecrated by his presence, the land in which our King marvelously performed the mystery of our redemption....

It was your duty to attend to the business of your legation and to give careful consideration, not to the capture of the Empire of Constantinople, but rather to the defense of what is left of the Holy Land and, with the Lord's leave, the restoration of what has been lost. We made you our representative and we sent you to gain, not temporal, but rather eternal riches. And for this purpose, our brethren provided adequately for your needs.

We have just beard and discovered from your letters that you have absolved from their pilgrimage vows and their crusading obligations all the Crusaders who have remained to defend Constantinople from last March to the present. It is impossible not to be moved against you, for you neither should nor could give any such absolution.

Whoever suggested such a thing to you and how did they ever lead your mind astray?. . .

How, indeed, is the Greek church to be brought back into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See when she has been beset with so many afflictions and persecutions that she sees in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, whose swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, are now dripping with Christian blood ­ they have spared neither age nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics. .

Furthermore, under what guise can we call upon the other Western peoples for aid to the Holy Land and assistance to the Empire of Constantinople? When the Crusaders, having given up the proposed pilgrimage, return absolved to their homes; when those who plundered the aforesaid Empire turn back and come home with their spoils, free of guilt; will not people then suspect that these things have happened, not because of the crime involved, but because of your deed? Let the Lord's word not be stifled in your mouth. Be not like a dumb dog, unable to bark. Rather, let them speak these things publicly, let them protest before everyone, so that the more they rebuke you before God and on God's account, the more they will find you simply negligent. As for the absolution of the Venetian people being falsely accepted, against ecclesiastical rules, we will not at present argue with you....
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/1204innocent.asp

Pope Innocent III excommunicated the crusaders for their actions, but did not do anything to force the relics to be returned and also didn't stop himself from being the leader of the Eastern region.
Innocent III was heavily opposed to the attack on Constantinople and sent many letters warning the crusaders to not sack the city. Innocent III excommunicated the crusaders who attacked Byzantine cities, but was unable to physically halt or overturn their actions. The attack on Constantinople led to the start of the Latin Empire's rule of Constantinople, which lasted for the next sixty years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_III

Many of the crusaders were from France.
The majority of the crusading army that set out from Venice in early October 1202 originated from areas within France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

So, possibly the crusaders were responsible for taking the TS from Constantinople into France.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2452

Post by otseng »

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... schild.jpg

When we look back in history, many of the accounts, particularly in the Middle Ages, are considered legends. The early usage of the word legend simply meant a narrative of an event. Over time, it took on the idea of being a spurious narrative.
Legend is a loanword from Old French that entered English usage circa 1340. The Old French noun legende derives from the Medieval Latin legenda.[7] In its early English-language usage, the word indicated a narrative of an event. The word legendary was originally a noun (introduced in the 1510s) meaning a collection or corpus of legends.[8][9] This word changed to legendry, and legendary became the adjectival form.[8]

By 1613, English-speaking Protestants began to use the word when they wished to imply that an event (especially the story of any saint not acknowledged in John Foxe's Actes and Monuments) was fictitious. Thus, legend gained its modern connotations of "undocumented" and "spurious", which distinguish it from the meaning of chronicle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend

Legends differ from myths and fables in that legends contain some historical basis.
A legend is a genre of folklore that consists of a narrative featuring human actions, believed or perceived to have taken place in human history. Narratives in this genre may demonstrate human values, and possess certain qualities that give the tale verisimilitude. Legend, for its active and passive participants, may include miracles. Legends may be transformed over time to keep them fresh and vital.

Many legends operate within the realm of uncertainty, never being entirely believed by the participants, but also never being resolutely doubted.[1] Legends are sometimes distinguished from myths in that they concern human beings as the main characters rather than gods, and sometimes in that they have some sort of historical basis whereas myths generally do not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend
"The legend, on the other hand, has, of necessity, some historical or topographical connection. It refers imaginary events to some real personage, or it localizes romantic stories in some definite spot."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend

Legends originally referred to a story about a saint.
Legend, traditional story or group of stories told about a particular person or place. Formerly the term legend meant a tale about a saint. Legends resemble folktales in content; they may include supernatural beings, elements of mythology, or explanations of natural phenomena, but they are associated with a particular locality or person and are told as a matter of history.
https://www.britannica.com/art/legend-literature

Over time, a legend evolves and adds more things to make it more interesting.
Legends, as opposed to fictional myths, contain a seed of truth. They are born from historical events, people or real-life moments that become part of our collective cultural context. But as these stories evolve and pass from generation to generation, they pick up details that can twist and color the truth, making legends even more memorable, relatable and entertaining.
https://www.farandwide.com/s/fascinatin ... 11697b4600

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2453

Post by otseng »

Image

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ntines.jpg

Prior to the TS in Constantinople, the shroud was in Edessa.
The image was moved from Edessa to Constantinople after the successful wars that the Byzantine Empire had waged in the eastern part of Asia Minor from the 920s. At the head of the mostly victorious marches was John Kourkouas, a prominent chieftain and friend of Emperor Romanos I Lekapenos, who in 942 launched another successful expedition resulting in the recapture of a number of cities in Mesopotamia from the Arabs. In 943, Kourkouas approached Edessa, but unexpectedly abandoned the assault, demanding the surrender of a relic stored in the city.
https://leksykonsyndonologiczny.pl/en/s ... antinople/

Byzantine Emperor Romanos I Lekapenos made a massive offer for the cloth.
In the previous appointment we told that al-Muttaqi, Caliph of Baghdad, following the indication of the grand vizier Ali ibn Isa, reported to the Emir of Edessa the decision to be taken in the presence of the proposal manifested by the Byzantines, headed by General Curcuas: the an exchange between the precious Edessene image and the twelve thousand pieces of silver, plus the release of high-ranking Muslim prisoners, was to be accepted. In fulfillment of this, Bishop Abramio, following the Byzantine army, had the right to withdraw the venerated icon, which belonged to the Melkites. Once they reached the goal, Curcuas and Abramio marched back to Constantinople.
https://unaminoranzacreativa.wordpress. ... shroud-34/
943 In the Spring of 943, Byzantine usurper Emperor Romanos I Lekapenos (r. 920–944) sends an army led by his best general, John Curcuas (fl. 915–946), to Edessa to negotiate with its Muslim emir ruler for possession of the Edessa cloth, to add to his collection of Christian relics. In exchange for the Cloth, Curcuas offered on behalf of the Emperor, a guarantee of perpetual immunity of Edessa from Byzantine attack, 12,000 pieces of silver and the release of 200 Muslim prisoners.
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ntury.html

There was a feast on Aug 16th to celebrate having possession of the shroud.
On 15th August 944, the Image of Edessa, the acheiropoietos image (not made by
human hands), came to the imperial capital Constantinople from Edessa (today's Sanli-
Urfa in Turkey). The feast day of the event is celebrated in the Orthodox Church on the
following day, 16 th August,
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/guscin3.pdf

It is also testified by Gregory Referendarius in a sermon from the 11th century on the commemoration of the shroud arriving into the city.
A sermon pronounced by Gregory Referendarius, Archdeacon of Hagia Sophia
in Constantinople on the occasion of the Image's arrival in the city survives in one
known manuscript in the Vatican Archives, recently rediscovered by Italian classics
scholar Gino Zaninotto. The codex dates from the eleventh century.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/guscin3.pdf

Extracts from the sermon:
A sermon by Gregory the Archdeacon and Referendarius of the great church at
Constantinople, about how incredible things are not subject to the laws of praise, and
about how three patriarchs have declared that there is an image of Christ which was
brought from Edessa 919 years afterwards by the zeal of a pious emperor, in the year 6452. Lord bless us.

And so, what exactly is it? By the simple touching to the face of Christ, an
image of his form was made, so that people would not think in a dangerous or perilous
way that it never actually existed and has been invented.

... taking this linen cloth he wiped the sweat that was falling down
his face like drops of blood in his agony. And miraculously, just as he made everything from
nothing in his divine strength, he imprinted the reflection of his form on the linen.

A second light, immaterial and unique, came devotedly from you, an
unexpected and material intertwining, natures distantly embracing heaven and earth, one
living being made of two opposites: your human image, food from the clouds, a river
flowing from a dry rock, and what is genuinely new under the sun, you were born a man
in these last times from a virgin mother. You wiped clean the sweat of the nature you
had taken on and what was wiped clean was transformed into an image of your
unchanging form, just like Adam's form was drawn out of the ground, like the eyes of
nature in the folds of the kneaded earth.

He will do this straight away for us if we so desire, if we look upon the
reflection and the immense beauty it is depicted with. For this is not the art of painting,
which provides a door for the mind to consider the original and depicts images. This
reflection was imprinted from a living original.

This reflection, however – let everyone be inspired with the explanation – has
been imprinted only by the sweat from the face of the originator of life, falling like
drops of blood, and by the finger of God. For these are the beauties that have made up
the true imprint of Christ, since after the drops fell, it was embellished by drops from
his own side.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/guscin3.pdf

The feast is still celebrated to this day.
The Feast of this icon is celebrated on August 16, during the afterfeast period of the feast of the Dormition, and is called the Third Feast-of-the-Savior in August.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Image_Not-made-by-hands

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2454

Post by otseng »

Image
https://orthodoxwiki.org/File:Not_made_by_hands.jpg

A very common motif during the Byantine era is the Acheiropoieta ("made without hand"). Many things fall under this motif: Mandylion, Image of Edessa, Veil of Veronica, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and the Manoppello Image.
Acheiropoieta (Medieval Greek: αχειροποίητα, "made without hand"; singular acheiropoieton) — also called icons made without hands (and variants) — are Christian icons which are said to have come into existence miraculously; not created by a human. Invariably these are images of Jesus or the Virgin Mary. The most notable examples that are credited by tradition among the faithful are, in the Eastern church, the Mandylion, also known as the Image of Edessa, and the Hodegetria, and several Russian icons, and in the West the Shroud of Turin, Veil of Veronica, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and the Manoppello Image.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheiropoieta
Icons created by divine agency were known as acheiropoieta (“not made by (human) hands”). This category of miraculously created image was accorded special veneration throughout the history of Byzantium. A significant number of acheiropoieta originated in the Early Byzantine period, before the advent of Iconoclasm in the early eighth century.
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/icon/hd_icon.htm

This motif started in the 6th century.
The belief in such images became prominent only in the 6th century, by the end of which both the Mandylion and the Image of Camuliana were well known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheiropoieta

If the TS is legit, then it is reasonable the shroud is the archetype of all the Acheiropoieta images. All Acheiropoieta icons were then either referring to the TS itself or to copies inspired by the TS.
The term is also used of icons that are only regarded as normal human copies of a miraculously created original archetype.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheiropoieta

There is no surviving relic that can be claimed to be the original archetype other than the TS. The TS is the sole artifact that is in our possession that can be scientifically tested to be not made by human hands. Even to this day, we have no idea how to fully replicate it. And since all the copies were made by human hands, I think it makes more sense the term Acheiropoieta applies not to the copies, but to the original archetype that all of them is based on.

Video explaining Acheiropoieta:


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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2455

Post by otseng »

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ar_(2).JPG

The Verdun altarpiece at Klosterneuburg was created by Nicholas of Verdun in 1181.
The Verdun Altar is located at the Klosterneuburg Monastery in Austria.[4] It was made in c.1181 and it is named after Nicholas of Verdun. Its composition contains detailed decorative panels which depict biblical scenes. The work is divided into 3 compartments that are comprised out of 45 copper squares. It is also split into 3 rows due to biblical reference and we have the central theme being the life of Jesus while the adjacent sides illustrate the life of Adam and Noah or David and the Babylonian captivity. The Medium used for this work is called champlevé enamel work where a metal base with compartments is filled with enamel. The program is set up according to biblical scenes and is considered to be the most important surviving work done with ambitious effort for something that was made in the 12th century. There is a transition of early Romanesque to a more classical handling according to the way the work was treated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_of_Verdun

Around 1200 AD, Europe was started to be influenced by Byzantine art.
Around the year 1200, a new awareness in northern Europe of Byzantine art, coinciding with a revival of interest in classical art, led to the emergence of a highly classicizing style of figural representation in stone sculpture, metalwork and manuscript illumination. Nicholas of Verdun was a leading practitioner of this short-lived proto-Renaissance as seen in the enameled plaques of the Klosterneuburg Altar and the Three Kings Shrine in Cologne Cathedral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_of_Verdun

In one of the panels, Jesus is depicted similarly to depictions in Byzantine art - crossed hands over the groin, right hand over left, no thumb, Jesus in a box.

Image

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2456

Post by otseng »

Image

The "Scenes from the Passion of Christ" is an ivory panel roughly 1 foot by 5 inches dated to the early 12th century that originated most likely in Constantinople.
The plaque is the biggest ivory panel of the Middle Byzantine period recorded, and is comparable in size to conuslar diptychs.

Relief in ivory with traces of colour. In two compartments; in the upper is the Crucifixion, on the left stand the Virgin and St. John, on the right Longinus, beside him the centurion and, behind, Stephaton with the sponge; by an apparent misunderstanding of the attitudes of the figures the bucket has been transferred from Stephaton to Longinus; above are the Sun and Moon, and two angels. In the lower compartment the body of Christ is lowered from the cross by Joseph of Arimathea, assisted by Nicodemus, who takes the nails from his left hand, and by the Virgin, who holds his right arm; St. John stands on the right of the cross lamenting, above are four angels. Below, the body of Christ is laid in the tomb by two disciples and the Virgin, who kneels at his head; three angels fly above.

Its original function however, remains unclear. The three large holes in the borders at top and bottom, which could have held pegs to secure ivory strips onto which would be fitted the wings, might indicate that it served as the centre of a triptych. Against this, the rough appearance of the back suggests that it was never meant to be seen, and was instead intended to be mounted in a larger ensemble of narrative plaques, perhaps as part of an altar frontal or other item of church furniture. Notwithstanding the evidence for Byzantine book-covers being virtually non-existent, this use also needs to be considered. The plaque certainly appears to have been re-employed in a secondary context, and a hole drilled vertically through the upper border (which has since cracked) indicates that it was at one time hung on a wall as an icon.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8841 ... l-unknown/

Image

The image of Jesus typifies Byzantine iconography that match with several characteristics of the TS image - arms crossed over groin, right hand over left, no thumbs.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2457

Post by otseng »

Image
https://www.worldhistory.org/image/7571 ... e-1025-ce/

The city of Edessa has a long history as an important city.
Edessa (/ɪˈdɛsə/; Ancient Greek: Ἔδεσσα, romanized: Édessa) was an ancient city (polis) in Upper Mesopotamia, founded during the Hellenistic period by King Seleucus I Nicator (r. 305–281 BC), founder of the Seleucid Empire. It later became capital of the Kingdom of Osroene, and continued as capital of the Roman province of Osroene. In Late Antiquity, it became a prominent center of Christian learning and seat of the Catechetical School of Edessa. During the Crusades, it was the capital of the County of Edessa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa
Edessa (modern Urfa), located today in south-east Turkey but once part of upper Mesopotamia on the frontier of the Syrian desert, was an important city throughout antiquity and the Middle Ages.

In the 2nd century BCE, Edessa became the capital and royal residence of Osroene, a region of the Seleucid Empire in north-west Mesopotamia which declared itself an independent kingdom (traditional date 132 BCE).

Then, after the successful campaigns of the emperor Lucius Verus (r. 161-169 CE), who sacked Edessa, the city was made into a Roman colony and, thereafter, prospered, even minting its own coinage. The city once again benefitted from its favourable position on trade routes, being on the only official route between the Roman and Parthian Empires (247 BCE - 224 CE).

In 242 CE Edessa became the capital of the Roman province of Osroene.

Edessa was attacked several times over the centuries especially by the neighbouring Sasanids, notably in 503 CE by Kavad, king of Persia (r. 488-531 CE), although his siege was not successful (the Mandylion doing its job). In the on-off wars between Persia and the Byzantine Empire (the eastern half of the Roman Empire), Edessa was once more attacked in 544 CE, this time by Chosroes I (r. 531-579 CE), but again the city stood firm. Between 638 and 641 CE, it was a different story and Edessa fell under Arab control; it would not return to Byzantine rule until the Byzantine general John Kourkouas took it back in 944 CE. The city, nevertheless, remained an important Christian centre, especially in terms of translations, manuscript production, and education. The cathedral of Edessa was described by the 10th-century CE Arab scholar al-Maqdidis as "a wonder of the world" (Bagnall, 2306).

Conquered by the Muslim Arabs c. 638 CE, it would be incorporated into the Byzantine Empire from 944 CE. Still a major Christian and cultural centre and capital of the County of Edessa, the city's capture by the Muslim leader Zangi in 1144 CE, was the original motivation for the launch of the unsuccessful Second Crusade (1147-1149 CE) in order to reclaim it for Christendom. Following its destruction by the Muslim leader Nur ad-Din (sometimes also given as Nur al-Din) in 1146 CE, Edessa largely disappears from history, but today many fine mosaics from the city survive and attest to the wealth of some of Edessa's citizens in Late Antiquity and the early medieval period.
https://www.worldhistory.org/edessa/

It was the first state to make Christianity the official religion.
In the history of the Church, Edessa is famed for being the first state to
adopt Christianity as the official religion.
https://www.cambridgescholars.com/resou ... sample.pdf

It was one of the earliest centers of Eastern Christianity.
The earliest centres of Christianity in the East were: Edessa, Arbela in Parthia, and India.
https://www.religion-online.org/book-ch ... in-persia/

It was a center of Christian scholarship.
At the same time that Edessa was the subject of imperial rivalries, the city still managed to become a great centre of culture and learning, especially of Christian scholarship. The city had been an early adopter of Christianity in the 2nd century CE with the first recorded church being already active in 202 CE. Edessa became the most important bishopric in Syria.
https://www.worldhistory.org/edessa/

The Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Old Testament) originated in Edessa.
Thence came to us in the second century the famous Peshitta, or Syriac translation of the Old Testament; also Tatian's Diatessaron, which was compiled about 172 and in common use until Rabbula, Bishop of Edessa (412–435), forbade its use. Among the illustrious disciples of the School of Edessa, Bardaisan (154–222), a schoolfellow of Abgar IX, deserves special mention for his role in creating Christian religious poetry, and whose teaching was continued by his son Harmonius and his disciples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa

At its Christian height, there were more than 300 monasteries at Edessa.
Christianity was introduced into Edessa at an early period. In the reign of Trajan the place was made tributary to Rome, and in A.D. 216 became a Roman military colony, under the name of Colonia Marcia Edessenorum. During this period its importance in the history of the Christian Church continued to increase. More than 300 monasteries are said to have been included within its walls.
https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/E/edessa.html

It contained many relics and was a popular pilgrim destination.
Edessa was also a popular stop for Christian pilgrims, the city boasting many holy relics such as the skeletal remains of Thomas the Apostle. Another important relic, and one considered of vital importance to the city's well-being, was the Mandylion icon.
https://www.worldhistory.org/edessa/

Today, it is a small town called Orfa.
Orfa is today the chief town of a sanjak in the vilayet of Aleppo, and has a trade in cotton stuffs, leather, and jewellery. Ruins of its walls and of an Arab castle are yet visible. One of its curiosities is the mosque of Abraham, this patriarch according to a Mussulman legend having been slain at Orfa. The population is about 55,000, of whom 15,000 are Christians (only 800 Catholics). There are 3 Catholic parishes, Syrian, Armenian, and Latin; the Latin parish is conducted by Capuchins, who have also a school. Franciscan nuns conduct a school for girls. This mission depends on the Apostolic mission of Mardin. There are also at Orfa a Jacobite and a Gregorian Armenian bishop.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05282a.htm

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2458

Post by otseng »

There are several ancient coins that match the TS.

Justin Robinson notes theses similarities in his blog, Byzantine Coins, the Shroud of Turin and the Holy Grail.
At some time during the short but distinguished reign of Byzantine Emperor John I Tzimiskes (AD 969- 976), an artist working at the Constantinople Mint was entrusted with the task of engraving an image of Jesus Christ for a new bronze follis. Earlier emperors had depicted Christ on gold and silver coins, but this was the first time that his likeness would appear on a mass-produced circulating coin.

The Emperor’s decision to depict Christ on his coinage instead of his own portrait may have been prompted by an exciting new acquisition. Constantinople had recently taken ownership of the holiest relic in Christendom, a mysterious image of Christ ‘not made by human hands’ but miraculously transferred onto a cloth, it was said, by Christ himself. Although it was considered too holy to go on public display at the time, our coin engraver would almost certainly have been granted the privilege of entering the Pharos chapel of Constantinople’s Imperial Palace for a special viewing in order to capture a good likeness.

The cloth had arrived in Constantinople amidst much rejoicing on 15th August 944 after being acquired from the city of Edessa (today, Urfa in Southern Turkey). According to local legend, it had been presented to King Abgar of Edessa by Jesus’ disciples when he became the first ruler to convert to Christianity. However, when the King died, the city reverted to paganism, and the cloth was hidden to protect it. Workers repairing the city walls in AD 525 stumbled upon it in a niche high above one of the main gates.
https://coinsandhistoryfoundation.org/2 ... oly-grail/

The first coins with Christ on it was in the late 7th century.
The first coins to depict Christ were struck almost three centuries earlier during the reign of Emperor Justinian II (AD 692–695). On that occasion, the coin engravers may have made the 800 mile trip to Edessa to see the Mandylion for themselves. Both the gold solidus and the smaller gold tremissis (one third the weight of the solidus) incorporate many intricate details present in the mysterious image. However, political instability in the region may have restricted future access to the cloth, and later designs appear to have been copies of the first strikes. During the Eighth Century, a fierce debate raged through the Eastern Church about whether it was heretical to make images of the Son of God. Many paintings of Christ were destroyed, and no coins were struck bearing his image for over a Century until the debate was resolved.
https://coinsandhistoryfoundation.org/2 ... oly-grail/

Coins are small so there is limited room to make an entirely accurate depiction of the image on the TS. But to make such a similar rendition on a 1 cm coin is impressive.
When flipped and viewed alongside an image of the face on the Shroud, the similarities are extraordinary, especially when you consider that our engraver was working on an area little more than a centimetre in diameter.
Hugh Farey, in his blog Follis Follies gives an annotated comparison.

Image
Byzantine Follis (AD 969-976)
“Most striking of all is the distinctive cross shape incorporating the eyebrows, forehead and nose. There is a long horizontal band above the eyes, bisected by a long vertical line that starts at the hairline and extends downwards to become a long nose. [1] The base of the nose connects to a smaller horizontal line that forms the moustache, which slopes down slightly on the left-hand side. [2] There is a distinctive mark on the right cheek [3], and beneath the moustache is a small square and a forked beard. [4] The long hair, which hangs down on both sides of the face, has two parallel strands of hair at the bottom left of the image. [5] These features can be seen clearly on the Shroud image, and the result is a coin that resembles the Shroud image far too closely to be dismissed as a coincidence.”
https://medievalshroud.com/follis-follies/

Image
Byzantine Follis (AD 1028-1041)
“Intriguingly, there is a tiny mark in the centre parting of the hair in the forehead that resembles the inverted “3” shaped bloodstain that appears on the Shroud in the same area. [1] In addition, the coin artist has replicated the way that the long hair appears to bunch at the shoulders. [2] The eyebrows are represented with a long horizontal line, and there is the suggestion that the right eyebrow is slightly higher than the left. [3] There is also a wound-like mark on the right cheek [4], a moustache that appears to slope down to the left [5] and, most striking of all, a horizontal band across the throat.”
https://medievalshroud.com/follis-follies/

Farey admits there are similarities between the coins and the TS image, but claims it is not authoritative.
Although all these folles show some general similarities, they none of them give us an authoritative version of the epitome they were generally copying.
The question is not if the similarities are authoritative, but what is the most reasonable explanation of the similarities? As is the case with the similarities with the art depictions of Jesus, the coin depictions come from a single archetype. The most parsimonious explanation of artwork and coins is from the TS.

Guilio Fanti wrote a book Byzantine Coins Influenced by the Shroud of Christ . Unfortunately, the price is above my budget.

Justin Robinson discusses coins in these videos:




Athetotheist
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2458

Hugh Farey, in his blog Follis Follies gives an annotated comparison.

Image
Byzantine Follis (AD 969-976)
So if you draw the same lines on two facial depictions which don't look alike, you can pretend that they're identical?

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otseng
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:42 pmSo if you draw the same lines on two facial depictions which don't look alike, you can pretend that they're identical?
Nobody is saying they are identical. But there are similarities with the coins and the TS. There must be some standard that all coins (and art as well) based their images on. The copies themselves would not be identical, but their similarity is best explained by a single archetype.

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