nobspeople wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am
The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?
While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.
Nobody is saying they are identical. But there are similarities with the coins and the TS. There must be some standard that all coins (and art as well) based their images on. The copies themselves would not be identical, but their similarity is best explained by a single archetype.
Then the same archetype could be the basis of the coins and the Turin cloth.
Nobody is saying they are identical. But there are similarities with the coins and the TS. There must be some standard that all coins (and art as well) based their images on. The copies themselves would not be identical, but their similarity is best explained by a single archetype.
Then the same archetype could be the basis of the coins and the Turin cloth.
In my arguments for the authenticity of the TS, I only brought up the scientific evidence and did not use any historical evidence (art, coins, textual). So, based on the scientific evidence, the TS is first century. Since the TS is first century, it would precede all the renditions we've found that have the typical Byzantine rendition of Jesus. So, the TS would be the archetype.
The image of Edessa (Mandylion) is tied to the legend of King Abgar V.
According to Christian tradition, the Image of Edessa was a holy relic consisting of a square or rectangle of cloth upon which a miraculous image of the face of Jesus had been imprinted—the first icon ("image"). The image is also known as the Mandylion (from Greek μανδύλιον "cloth, towel"), in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is also known as Acheiropoeiton (Εἰκόν' ἀχειροποίητη), or "icon not made by hand".
In the tradition recorded in the early 4th century by Eusebius of Caesarea, King Abgar of Edessa wrote to Jesus, asking him to come cure him of an illness. Abgar received a reply letter from Jesus, declining the invitation, but promising a future visit by one of his disciples. One of the seventy disciples, Thaddeus of Edessa, is said to have come to Edessa, bearing the words of Jesus, by the virtues of which the king was miraculously healed.
The earliest full account of the icon, the fourth-century Syriac Teaching of
Addai, describes it as a painting of Jesus' face made from life during his ministry by
Hanan, an agent of ailing King Abgar V of Edessa (13-50 CE). Remarkably, the
anonymous author comments on the "choice paints" used by Hanan, while omitting
mention of the medium, whether wood, parchment, or cloth. According to this account,
Abgar was healed by the painting and became a Christian.
All subsequent texts, however, consider the icon to be a large cloth, and
miraculously made. The usual Greek descriptor for this, (acheiropoietos), "not made by
human hands," was first suggested by the historian Evagrius, writing in the late sixth
century. The Acts of Thaddaeus (Greek for Addai already in the version of Eusebius,
who did not mention the icon) was a major retelling of the Abgar legend. Though its
earliest MS dates from the ninth century, it is thought to derive from a sixth-century
original. The anonymous author of this account says the brill iance surrounding Jesus'
face prevented Abgar's messenger from achieving the portrait, so Jesus wiped his face
on a tetradiplon and left its impression on "this sindon." Tetradiplon is no word for
towel; it suggests a cloth seen folded in eight layers. Sindon is the NT synoptic word
for Jesus' burial cloth.
Descriptions of its Edessan rituals indicate that it had been
shown to the masses only rarely and amidst mysterious ritual. Thus there were few
individuals who had personally experienced it. So secretly was this icon kept that, as
with the Grail, its true nature was not precisely known. As the Grail accounts differ
from one another regarding its "whatness," so also do the terms used by Greeks or
Westerners for this icon differ. In texts we find mandylion, mantile, sancta toella,
imago, linteum, manutergium, ektypoma, tetradiplon, sindon, soudarion, and the plurals
spargana, panni, fasciae, othonai, sindones--and the list is not exhaustive.
In one of its early rituals in Edessa before 944 and
possibly in Constantinople from 944 until it was lost in 1204, it was unfolded to suggest
first the infant Jesus and then, by a gradual series of changes throughout the day, the
crucified Jesus.
. . . on Easter it used to change its appearance according to different ages: it showed
itself in infancy at the first hour of the day, childhood at the third hour, adolescence at the sixth
hour, and the fullness of age at the ninth hour, when the Son of God came to His Passion . . .
and . . . cross .
The image of Edessa and the TS share common similarities in their history.
The first record of the existence of a physical image in the ancient city of Edessa (now Urfa) was by Evagrius Scholasticus, writing about 593, who reports a portrait of Christ of divine origin (θεότευκτος), which effected the miraculous aid in the defence of Edessa against the Persians in 544. The image was moved to Constantinople in the 10th century. The cloth disappeared when Constantinople was sacked in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and is believed by some to have reappeared as a relic in King Louis IX of France's Sainte-Chapelle in Paris.
The Mandylion remained under Imperial protection until the Crusaders sacked the city in 1204 and carried off many of its treasures to Western Europe, though the "Image of Edessa" is not mentioned in this context in any contemporary document. Similarly, it has been claimed that the Shroud of Turin disappeared from Constantinople in 1204, when Crusaders looted the city. The leaders of the Crusader army in this instance were French and Italian (from Venice), and it is believed that somehow because of this, the Shroud made its way to France.[16] A small part of a relic, believed to be the same as this, was one of the large group sold by Baldwin II of Constantinople to Louis IX of France in 1241 and housed in the Sainte-Chapelle in Paris (not to be confused with the Sainte Chapelle at Chambéry, home for a time of the Shroud of Turin) until it disappeared during the French Revolution.[6]
It makes the most sense that the image of Edessa (Mandylion) and the TS is the same thing.
It seems that the Mandylion story was based on the actual conversion to Christianity of a later king of the same name, Abgar IX (r. 179-216 CE). Whatever the origins of the story, the important fact was that the people of Edessa, along with many others in the Christian world, believed it to be true. Further, the image on the miracle icon, probably the first relic its kind, was copied in many wall-paintings and domes in churches around Christendom as it became the standard representation known as the Pantokrator (All-Ruler) with Christ full frontal holding a Gospel book in his left hand and performing a blessing with his right. The image would also inspire the design of coins of the Byzantine Empire. The Mandylion had other influences, too, the icon being frequently cited in theological arguments for Christ's incarnation as a real man during the Middle Ages.
In my arguments for the authenticity of the TS, I only brought up the scientific evidence and did not use any historical evidence (art, coins, textual). So, based on the scientific evidence, the TS is first century. Since the TS is first century, it would precede all the renditions we've found that have the typical Byzantine rendition of Jesus. So, the TS would be the archetype.
The literary archetype would be in the Christian resurrection narrative, which itself can arguably be linked to the dying-and-rising god stories of pre-Christian cultures.
And I've yet to see any scientific evidence that the resurrection of a body from beneath a strip of linen would leave a gap in the image of the body where the material went over the head.
Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:40 am
The literary archetype would be in the Christian resurrection narrative, which itself can arguably be linked to the dying-and-rising god stories of pre-Christian cultures.
As for pre-Christian resurrection stories, we'll discuss that when we get to the textual evidence of the resurrection.
And I've yet to see any scientific evidence that the resurrection of a body from beneath a strip of linen would leave a gap in the image of the body where the material went over the head.
After discussing the provenance, we'll discuss the theories of imaging.
The Acts of Thaddeus recounts the legend of King Abgar V being healed by a cloth with the image of Jesus on it.
The Acts of Thaddeus (Greek: Πραξεὶ̀ς τοῦ Θαδδαίου[1]) is a Greek document written between 544 and 944 CE which purports to describe correspondence between King Abgar V of Edessa and Jesus, which results in Jesus' disciple Thaddeus going to Edessa.
And Ananias, having gone and given the letter, was carefully looking at Christ, but was unable to fix Him in his mind. And He knew as knowing the heart, and asked to wash Himself; and a towel was given Him; and when He had washed Himself, He wiped His face with it. And His image having been imprinted upon the linen, He gave it to Ananias, saying: Give this, and take back this message, to him that sent thee: Peace to thee and thy city! For because of this I am come, to suffer for the world, and to rise again, and to raise up the forefathers. And after I have been taken up into the heavens I shall send thee my disciple Thaddæus, who shall enlighten thee, and guide thee into all the truth, both thee and thy city.
And having received Ananias, and fallen down and adored the likeness, Abgarus was cured of his disease before Thaddæus came.
In the passage, "towel" is "tetradiplon" in the Greek.
There is an earlier account of the legend of Abgar in the Doctrine of Addai.
The Doctrine of Addai (Syriac: ܡܠܦܢܘܬܐ ܕܐܕܝ ܫܠܝܚܐ Malp̄ānūṯā d-Addai Šlīḥā) is a Syriac Christian text, written in the late 4th or early 5th century CE. It recounts the legend of the Image of Edessa as well as the legendary works of Addai and his disciple Mari in Mesopotamia.
When Hannan, the keeper of the archives, saw that Jesus spake thus to him, by virtue of being the king's painter, he took and painted a likeness of Jesus with choice paints, and brought with him to Abgar the king, his master. And when Abgar the king saw the likeness, he received it with great joy, and placed it with great honour in one of his palatial houses.
At the moment that he placed his hand upon him, he was cured of the plague of the disease, which he had had for a long time. Abgar wondered and was astonished, that as it was reported to him concerning Jesus, that which He did and cured; so also Addai himself, without medicine of any kind, healed in the name of Jesus.
Both of these accounts were written hundreds of years after the life of Abgar V, who lived in the first century.
Abgar V (c. 1st century BC – c. AD 50), called Ukkāmā (meaning "the Black" in Syriac and other dialects of Aramaic),[a] was the King of Osroene with his capital at Edessa.
Abgar V is said to be one of the first Christian kings in history, having been converted to the faith by Thaddeus of Edessa, one of the seventy disciples.
In the apocryphal work, The Epistles Of Jesus Christ & Abgarus King Of Edessa, it does not mention any cloth or painting.
The answer of Jesus by Ananias the footman to Abgarus the king, 3 declining to visit Edessa.
ABGARUS, you are happy, forasmuch as you have believed on me, whom you have not seen.
2 For it is written concerning me, that those who have seen me should not believe on me, that they who have not seen might believe and live.
3 As to that part of your letter, which relates to my giving you a visit, I must inform you, that I must fulfil all the ends of my mission in this country, and after that be received up again to him who sent me.
4 But after my ascension I will send one of my disciples, who will cure your disease, and give life to you, and all that are with you.
New Advent article does not describe King Abgar's healing by the cloth, but by the laying on of hands.
After the ascension of our Saviour, the Apostle Thomas, one of the twelve, sent one of the seventy-six disciples, Thaddæus, to the city of Edessa to heal Abgar and to preach the Gospel, according to the word of the Lord. Thaddæus came to the house of Tobias, a Jewish prince, who is said to have been of the race of the Pacradouni. Tobias, having left Archam, did not abjure Judaism with the rest of his relatives, but followed its laws up to the moment when he believed in Christ. Soon the name of Thaddæus spreads through the whole town. Abgar, on learning of his arrival, said: "This is indeed he concerning whom Jesus wrote to me;" and immediately Abgar sent for the apostle. When Thaddæus entered, a marvellous appearance presented itself to the eyes of Abgar in the countenance of the apostle; the king having risen from his throne, fell on his face to the earth, and prostrated himself before Thaddæus. This spectacle greatly surprised all the princes who were present, for they were ignorant of the fact of the vision. "Are you really," said Abgar to Thaddæus, "are you the disciple of the ever-blessed Jesus? Are you he whom He promised to send to me, and can you heal my maladies?" "Yes," answered Thaddæus; "if you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the desires of your heart shall be granted." "I have believed in Jesus," said Abgar, "I have believed in His Father; therefore I wished to go at the head of my troops to destroy the Jews who have crucified Jesus, had I not been prevented by reason of the power of the Romans."
Thenceforth Thaddæus began to preach the Gospel to the king and his town; laying his hands upon Abgar, he cured him; he cured also a man with gout, Abdu, a prince of the town, much honoured in all the king's house. He also healed all the sick and infirm people in the town, and all believed in Jesus Christ. Abgar was baptized, and all the town with him, and the temples of the false gods were closed, and all the statues of idols that were placed on the altars and columns were hidden by being covered with reeds. Abgar did not compel any one to embrace the faith yet from day to day the number of the believers was multiplied.
King Abgar is a saint in the Orthodox church with several feasts in his honor.
Abgar is counted as saint, with feasts on 11 May and 28 October in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Thursday of the Third Week of Lent (Mid-Lent) in the Syriac Orthodox Church, and daily in the Mass of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
The Acts of Thaddeus recounts the legend of King Abgar V being healed by a cloth with the image of Jesus on it.
The Acts of Thaddeus (Greek: Πραξεὶ̀ς τοῦ Θαδδαίου[1]) is a Greek document written between 544 and 944 CE which purports to describe correspondence between King Abgar V of Edessa and Jesus, which results in Jesus' disciple Thaddeus going to Edessa.
And Ananias, having gone and given the letter, was carefully looking at Christ, but was unable to fix Him in his mind. And He knew as knowing the heart, and asked to wash Himself; and a towel was given Him; and when He had washed Himself, He wiped His face with it. And His image having been imprinted upon the linen, He gave it to Ananias, saying: Give this, and take back this message, to him that sent thee: Peace to thee and thy city! For because of this I am come, to suffer for the world, and to rise again, and to raise up the forefathers. And after I have been taken up into the heavens I shall send thee my disciple Thaddæus, who shall enlighten thee, and guide thee into all the truth, both thee and thy city.
And having received Ananias, and fallen down and adored the likeness, Abgarus was cured of his disease before Thaddæus came.
In the passage, "towel" is "tetradiplon" in the Greek.
There is an earlier account of the legend of Abgar in the Doctrine of Addai.
The Doctrine of Addai (Syriac: ܡܠܦܢܘܬܐ ܕܐܕܝ ܫܠܝܚܐ Malp̄ānūṯā d-Addai Šlīḥā) is a Syriac Christian text, written in the late 4th or early 5th century CE. It recounts the legend of the Image of Edessa as well as the legendary works of Addai and his disciple Mari in Mesopotamia.
When Hannan, the keeper of the archives, saw that Jesus spake thus to him, by virtue of being the king's painter, he took and painted a likeness of Jesus with choice paints, and brought with him to Abgar the king, his master. And when Abgar the king saw the likeness, he received it with great joy, and placed it with great honour in one of his palatial houses.
At the moment that he placed his hand upon him, he was cured of the plague of the disease, which he had had for a long time. Abgar wondered and was astonished, that as it was reported to him concerning Jesus, that which He did and cured; so also Addai himself, without medicine of any kind, healed in the name of Jesus.
Both of these accounts were written hundreds of years after the life of Abgar V, who lived in the first century.
Abgar V (c. 1st century BC – c. AD 50), called Ukkāmā (meaning "the Black" in Syriac and other dialects of Aramaic),[a] was the King of Osroene with his capital at Edessa.
Abgar V is said to be one of the first Christian kings in history, having been converted to the faith by Thaddeus of Edessa, one of the seventy disciples.
In the apocryphal work, The Epistles Of Jesus Christ & Abgarus King Of Edessa, it does not mention any cloth or painting.
The answer of Jesus by Ananias the footman to Abgarus the king, 3 declining to visit Edessa.
ABGARUS, you are happy, forasmuch as you have believed on me, whom you have not seen.
2 For it is written concerning me, that those who have seen me should not believe on me, that they who have not seen might believe and live.
3 As to that part of your letter, which relates to my giving you a visit, I must inform you, that I must fulfil all the ends of my mission in this country, and after that be received up again to him who sent me.
4 But after my ascension I will send one of my disciples, who will cure your disease, and give life to you, and all that are with you.
New Advent article does not describe King Abgar's healing by the cloth, but by the laying on of hands.
After the ascension of our Saviour, the Apostle Thomas, one of the twelve, sent one of the seventy-six disciples, Thaddæus, to the city of Edessa to heal Abgar and to preach the Gospel, according to the word of the Lord. Thaddæus came to the house of Tobias, a Jewish prince, who is said to have been of the race of the Pacradouni. Tobias, having left Archam, did not abjure Judaism with the rest of his relatives, but followed its laws up to the moment when he believed in Christ. Soon the name of Thaddæus spreads through the whole town. Abgar, on learning of his arrival, said: "This is indeed he concerning whom Jesus wrote to me;" and immediately Abgar sent for the apostle. When Thaddæus entered, a marvellous appearance presented itself to the eyes of Abgar in the countenance of the apostle; the king having risen from his throne, fell on his face to the earth, and prostrated himself before Thaddæus. This spectacle greatly surprised all the princes who were present, for they were ignorant of the fact of the vision. "Are you really," said Abgar to Thaddæus, "are you the disciple of the ever-blessed Jesus? Are you he whom He promised to send to me, and can you heal my maladies?" "Yes," answered Thaddæus; "if you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the desires of your heart shall be granted." "I have believed in Jesus," said Abgar, "I have believed in His Father; therefore I wished to go at the head of my troops to destroy the Jews who have crucified Jesus, had I not been prevented by reason of the power of the Romans."
Thenceforth Thaddæus began to preach the Gospel to the king and his town; laying his hands upon Abgar, he cured him; he cured also a man with gout, Abdu, a prince of the town, much honoured in all the king's house. He also healed all the sick and infirm people in the town, and all believed in Jesus Christ. Abgar was baptized, and all the town with him, and the temples of the false gods were closed, and all the statues of idols that were placed on the altars and columns were hidden by being covered with reeds. Abgar did not compel any one to embrace the faith yet from day to day the number of the believers was multiplied.
King Abgar is a saint in the Orthodox church with several feasts in his honor.
Abgar is counted as saint, with feasts on 11 May and 28 October in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Thursday of the Third Week of Lent (Mid-Lent) in the Syriac Orthodox Church, and daily in the Mass of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
What's the point of all this? Are you going down a laundry list of legends to help convince yourself that the Turin cloth must have some legitimacy because there are so many stories about similar artifacts?
Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 11:20 amWhat's the point of all this? Are you going down a laundry list of legends to help convince yourself that the Turin cloth must have some legitimacy because there are so many stories about similar artifacts?
I already explained the purpose:
otseng wrote: ↑Sat May 06, 2023 7:04 am
Next, I'll be going into the provenance of the shroud. Knowing the history of the shroud is not a necessary condition for my arguments on the authenticity of the shroud. But, it would satisfy intellectual curiosity of how the shroud traveled from Jerusalem to Lirey, France.
Also provenance has been brought up multiple times as an issue for the TS, so that is why I'm spending considerable time presenting information on it.
brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:58 pm
There is little in the way of definitive evidence for the authenticity of the shroud. No provenance for a start. It cannot be traced back to Jesus and the tomb.
brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:23 pmAs with authentication of artworks, establishing the provenance of the work is a key part of the process. So, starting with the provenance, what have you got?
JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:11 amIt fails as a relic because it lacks the provenance (among other data) required to establish its relicicity.
brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:23 am
Provenance is everything. A piece of cloth appears around 1354. Claims are made about it being the burial cloth of Jesus. There is no chain of custody or connection back to the alleged corpse of Jesus. All we have is a possibly contested age for the cloth which does nothing to fill in any of the gaps. Unanswered questions are not evidence for anything.
oldbadger wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:37 am
Now if Paul had written to a congregation and included mention of such a cloth being sent to them, or if Peter had included mention in his letters.....etc etc. But there is nothing like that at all. This item seems to have sprung in to existence 700 years ago.
Diogenes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:00 am? No, they say 14th Century, consistent with the lack of provenance and ZERO mentions in history until then.
Diogenes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:06 am
*The extrinsic evidence for forgery has been amply listed previously, but includes:
The lack of provenance.
Now, if you have any substantive counterarguments to what I've presented regarded the provenance of the TS, please present it.
As I mentioned, the Acts of Thaddeus uses the Greek word "tetradiplon" that was translated as "towel". Towel is not the best way to translate this. Tetradiplon literally means "four double" or "four folding". Why would it be translated towel and what is the significance of a cloth that is folded four times?
It was originally theorized by Ian Wilson this is a reference to the TS.
When Ian Wilson read the AT account he learned that what the Greek text actually said was that Jesus was given a rakos (piece of cloth) which was a tetradiplon, a word translated as “doubled in four,” and then imprinted his face on the sindon (linen). Rakos and sindon are common words, but tetradiplon very rare. Surprisingly, this word was never used except in reference to the Edessa Image. By three simple width-wide foldings, Wilson found that the Shroud of Turin was easily converted into a cloth with four, two-fold layers. Additionally, the final panel would be a landscape shaped horizontal rectangle. In this arrangement, through no special effort, this panel (one-eighth the original Shroud size) would show only the Shroud’s face, with the remaining body images hidden within the folds. Wilson noticed that the earliest surviving pictures of what the entire Icon actually looked like (from the 10th to 13th centuries) showed a rectangular picture frame with just a face on a cloth, seen through a circular opening in a slipcover. It was almost always set in a landscape (rectangular) shape, as opposed to the more artistically acceptable portrait shape (vertical rectangle) (Wilson 1979: 119 – 120). For Wilson these observations were an epiphany unlocking some of the Shroud’s earlier history, including a variety of mysterious changes in Christian art.
A folded TS explains why the image of Edessa has a face of Jesus on a rectangular landscape oriented cloth.
Though Wilson proposed the cloth was folded three times, Stephen Jones gives an explanation how the TS could've been folded four times.
Tetradiplon and the Shroud of Turin illustrated: The full-length Shroud of Turin (1), is doubled four times (2 through 5), resulting in Jesus' face within a rectangle, in landscape aspect (5), exactly as depicted in the earliest copies of the Image of Edessa, the 11th century Sakli church, Turkey (6) and the 10th century icon of King Abgar V of Edessa holding the Image of Edessa, St. Catherine's monastery, Sinai (7).]
