How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.


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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2481


Rather than the somewhat debatable hypothetical route of the shroud from Jerusalem to Lirey, or the tenuou slink to the Templars, what bothers me more is the Lirey pilgrims'medallion, several of which have been found in the nearby river, and even a mould for making these pilgrim medals.

"On the medallion of Lirey, the reproduction of the Shroud is unmistakable as we can clearly see the frontal and dorsal of a body very similar to the Turin Shroud along the coats of arms of the families (i.e. de Charny, de Vergy) who owned the Shroud in France around 1350-1450. It is difficult to date the medaillon precisely, but based on coats of arms, it was likely produced between 1350 and 1418, the period that the Shroud was in Lirey." (souvenir of Lirey).

The bother has always been - if this is a medieval fake, how was it possible? I had in mind the idea that the present shroud was not the Lirey one and that an original one was replaced quietly by one made in the renaissance, at a time when technological sophistication might make it possible to fabricate.

But the Lirey medallion seems to be the 'Fossil evidence' :mrgreen: that the present shroud is the Lirey one. It even shows some details later lost from the actual shroud because of fire - damage. One detail being that the left arm might be more recessed than the right which might explain why the arms look to be different lengths. Whatever this thing is, and even though it does make me think the 'blood' was added later as it appears in none of these early representation (1) I cannot believe it is a painting of any kind. This is some kind of contact or radiation - effect (negative) print on a cloth. I am a bit wishy - washy :D and I like it because I can follow the evidence, rather than try to lead it.

I doubt the 'x -ray' hypothesis, and I am not convinced by the 'distortion' claims. It looks pretty good to me, especially if an uneven contact is proposed.


I think this is ok re copyright as it appears in a Sindonology site. Let's hear it for the Lirey Pilgrims' badge O:)

(1) which only makes me think it might not only be an image of a real man but a real Jesus because it contradicts John and had to be altered to agree with the spear -thrust later on.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2482

Post by otseng »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 11:28 pm "On the medallion of Lirey, the reproduction of the Shroud is unmistakable as we can clearly see the frontal and dorsal of a body very similar to the Turin Shroud along the coats of arms of the families (i.e. de Charny, de Vergy) who owned the Shroud in France around 1350-1450. It is difficult to date the medaillon precisely, but based on coats of arms, it was likely produced between 1350 and 1418, the period that the Shroud was in Lirey." (souvenir of Lirey).

The bother has always been - if this is a medieval fake, how was it possible? I had in mind the idea that the present shroud was not the Lirey one and that an original one was replaced quietly by one made in the renaissance, at a time when technological sophistication might make it possible to fabricate.


The Medallion of Lirey is the first known rendition of the TS with a full front and back body. This is evidence the shroud displayed at Lirey was the TS. I have not found anyone (shroudies or skeptics) that dispute this.

There are few features interesting about the Cluny Museum piece:

1. It is a 3-D relief of a totally nude person.

2. Right arm is more pronounced than the left arm.

3. Coat of arms links it to Jeanne de Vergy and Geoffroy I de Charny.
Two essential elements represented on the medallion were used to date it: the two coats of arms (or emblems, ecussons, blason) of the families owning the Shroud in 1353. Jeanne de Vergy was the spouse of Geoffroy I de Charny. Geoffroy I de Charny died on 19 September 1356. His grandfather on his mother side was Jean de Joinville, a close friend of King Louis IX and also the author of his biography.

4. At the bottom represents a tomb with a cave hole entrance, a box or a shelf, a cross with a circle under it. The circle could be the crown of thorns. Either side of the tomb are probably Roman flagrums.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2483

Post by otseng »


Who were the Templars?
The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Salomonici), also known as the Order of Solomon's Temple, the Knights Templar, or simply the Templars, was a military order of the Catholic faith, and one of the wealthiest and most popular military orders in Western Christianity.

It was founded around 1119 and existed for around 200 years.
They were founded circa 1119, headquartered on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and existed for nearly two centuries during the Middle Ages.

It was formed to protect pilgrims traveling from Europe to Jerusalem.
There are many historical accounts of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Jesus Christ, or Knights of the Temple, more commonly referred to as Knights Templar. They were formed as a result of the Crusades doing battle with the Moslems and the capture of Jerusalem around 1099. Jerusalem fell and the Holy City belonged to the Crusaders and all Christendom rejoiced. Most libraries and bookstores have many volumes on the Crusades and the Knights Templar and these writings are easily understood. The Internet today has an almost endless amount of information on Knights Templar and those interested can become well informed of the different versions relating to their history.

Men, women and children pressed forward on their pilgrimage to the sacred city only to find that although Jerusalem was in Christian hands, the Moslems still controlled Palestine.

The highways and byways leading to Jerusalem were unprotected. The ferocity of the Moslems seemed to increase with the fall of the city, and mutilated bodies and bleached bones of pilgrims soon became a common site along the roadways. To add to the vulnerability of the pilgrims, thousands of the Crusaders, their primary objective accomplished, returned to their own lands leaving the countryside to the Moslems uncontested.
This was the circumstance that set the stage for Templary. A small band of Crusaders remaining after the conquest recognized the plight of the pilgrims and bound themselves in a holy Brotherhood in arms, entering into a solemn agreement to aid one another in clearing the highways, and in protecting the pilgrims through the passes and defiles of the mountains to the Holy City

In short, the Knights Templar were laymen who protected and defended Christians traveling to Jerusalem. These men took vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and were renowned for their fierceness and courage in battle.

In 1118 A.D., nineteen years after the successful Crusade, these Poor Fellow Soldiers of Jesus Christ, as they termed themselves, were officially recognized and sanctioned and were given for their headquarters, a building on Mount Moriah, the site of the former Temple of King Solomon. Consequently, they became known as the Knights of the Temple, or Knights Templar.

This was the era of chivalric ascendancy. Much as outstanding athletes receive the hero worship and admiration of the public today, so did those Knights of old capture the hearts and the wealth of the public of their period. Their fame spread like wildfire. Rulers hastened to be identified with Knights Templar and to present gold and property to the Order.

It is a matter of history that the warriors who fought for Christianity as Knights Templar had their vicissitudes with more downs than ups on the battlefield through the centuries. However, their wealth and their prestige remained undiminished. on the contrary their treasury became too large to escape the notice of some financially embarrassed rulers, especially Philip the Fair, King of France.

Philip the Fair with Pope Clement (who Philip pretty well influenced) arranged for Convocation of the Grand Master of the Knights Templar, Jacques DeMolay, and his officers at Paris. The Convocation was held, but Grand Master DeMolay and his officers never left, at least not with their lives. In 1314 Jacques DeMolay was burned at the stake for alleged heresy and dozens of other accusations; all Knight Templar wealth was seized and Templary “moved underground.”

The Templars were a military monastic order.
The Templars were organized as a monastic order similar to Bernard's Cistercian Order, which was considered the first effective international organization in Europe.[65] The organizational structure had a strong chain of authority. Each country with a major Templar presence (France, Poitou, Anjou, Jerusalem, England, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Tripoli, Antioch, Hungary, and Croatia)[66] had a Master of the Order for the Templars in that region.

Members had to vow poverty, chastity, piety, and obedience. However, there were some that were married.
Initiation,[89] known as Reception (receptio) into the order, was a profound commitment and involved a solemn ceremony. Outsiders were discouraged from attending the ceremony, which aroused the suspicions of medieval inquisitors during the later trials. New members had to willingly sign over all of their wealth and goods to the order and take vows of poverty, chastity, piety, and obedience.[90] Most brothers joined for life, although some were allowed to join for a set period. Sometimes a married man was allowed to join if he had his wife's permission,[80] but he was not allowed to wear the white mantle.[91]

It had at most 20,000 members at its height. Only a tenth of members were knights.
No precise numbers exist, but it is estimated that at the order's peak there were between 15,000 and 20,000 Templars, of whom about a tenth were actual knights.

They had great financial power and is considered to be the first multinational corporation.
They were prominent in Christian finance; non-combatant members of the order, who made up as much as 90% of their members, managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom. They developed innovative financial techniques that were an early form of banking, building a network of nearly 1,000 commanderies and fortifications across Europe and the Holy Land, and arguably forming the world's first multinational corporation.

They were the first to create an early form of international banking.
Accumulating wealth in this manner throughout Christendom and the Outremer, the order in 1150 began generating letters of credit for pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land: pilgrims deposited their valuables with a local Templar preceptory before embarking, received a document indicating the value of their deposit, then used that document upon arrival in the Holy Land to retrieve their funds in an amount of treasure of equal value. This innovative arrangement was an early form of banking and may have been the first formal system to support the use of cheques; it improved the safety of pilgrims by making them less attractive targets for thieves, and also contributed to the Templar coffers.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2484

Post by otseng »

There are additional connections with the TS and the Templars.

The disappearance of the shroud after the sack of Constantinople falls in the period of the height of the Templars.
The Ancient Templars were founded around 1118 A.D., and the last Grand Master, Jacques DeMolay, was burned at the stake, signaling the end of the activity of the Ancient Templars on March 18th 1314, after years of torture and trial. This corresponds roughly to one of the two periods when the Shroud was missing from the public view if you believe the Cloth of Edessa, the Mandylion, and the Shroud of Turin to be the same object. During this time also, coinciding with the establishment of the Ancient Templars, the idea of Chivalry as defining a code of conduct: moral, religious, and social became popular. ... ROUD.htm#9

The Holy Grail stories also arose during this time.
During this time period, another phenomenon occurred, the publication of what is known as the "Grail Stories." These stories, including those of King Arthur and his round table, seem to link the concept of chivalry with a search for what is called the "Holy Grail." The Grail, always associated with Christ, is at different times said to be the cup used by Jesus during the last supper, some sort of cup or bowl in which were caught drops of the Savior's blood as he hung on the cross, or the actual bloodline of Christ who is said to have fathered a child by his wife, Mary Magdalene. No matter which legend is proposed, it always has reference to something that contains the blood of Christ. ... ROUD.htm#9
The association of the Holy Grail with the Templars has precedents even in 12th-century fiction; Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival calls the knights guarding the Grail Kingdom templeisen, apparently a conscious fictionalisation of the templarii.

Trials of the Templars referred to a worship of a "head".
The Templars had their own internal clergy, and their modes of worship may well have developed in ways somewhat independent of the main stream church. They also had initiation ceremonies known only to them and were questioned extensively about these ceremonies during their inquisition and suppression. In our series about the trials of the Ancient Templars, we published a synopsis of the transcript of these trials, and one of the questions put to these Templars concerned the worship of a "head" or an idol in the form of a head. This concept is still used in anti-Masonic propaganda where the head is now given the name "Bophamet" and drawn as the head of a goat! Modern Freemasons are thoroughly confused by such accusations and completely mystified as to where something so bizarre may have originated. ... ROUD.htm#9

Initiation of Templars involved "denying the crucifix".
Almost all of them indicated in testimony that they had been told to "deny this" referring to a crucifix held in the initiating Knight's hand. This worried me as all other evidence indicated that these ancient Templars were among the most devout Christians of their time. Why would they tell new initiates to "deny" a symbol of the Savior's sacrifice for their sins? I now believe that this rite was to point out to the candidate for Templary that on the Templar's altars, an image of the Shroud, the symbol of the resurrection of Christ, had been substituted for the crucifix, an emblem of the death of Christ. It was as if to say to the young Templar that anyone can die, but only Jesus, the Savior, can resurrect again to life. This would impress on the initiate that it was the resurrection of Christ, not the crucifixion that distinguishes Him as the One who has power over life and death and Him alone through whom salvation is obtained. The Shroud was used as a symbol of the resurrection, replacing the crucifix which was a symbol of His death. ... ROUD.htm#9

The Templars did many things secretly. And if they possessed the shroud, they would not have revealed it to the outside world.
Above all, the Templars held all of their deliberations and votes in secrecy. ... s-templar/
Eventually, their rules of secrecy, their power, privileges and their wealth, made them vulnerable ... ts_Templar

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2485

Post by otseng »

Image ... urning.jpg

The purpose of the Templars was to protect pilgrims journeying to Jerusalem. But, when the crusades ended in the late 13th century, it ended their primary purpose and turned entirely into an economic business. It then became a prime target because of their wealth.
Above all, the Templars held all of their deliberations and votes in secrecy. When they were fighting the infidel and protecting pilgrims, this was not an issue. But when the Crusades ran their course and Muslims systematically took back Holy Land territory and negotiated treaties for safe passage for Christian pilgrims, the Templars began to lose their reason for being there. When Muslims took Acre in 1291, Holy Land crusading effectively ended—leading to the next and final chapter for the Templars.

With no need to fight in the Holy Land, the Templars largely turned from military affairs to the worlds of finance, estate management, trade, banking, and overseeing investments along their network of tax-exempt properties in Europe. They were likely the richest operation in the Middle Ages, essentially making them Europe’s ATM.

They were not without enemies, and their worst one was Philip IV, king of France. He is also known to history as Philip the Fair (le Bel), who reigned from 1285 to 1314. He had been trying to control the papacy and Church in France for some time by taxing the clergy without papal permission.

Effectively, he was trying to separate Catholic France from papal authority (later known as Gallicanism). Philiphad particularly tangled with a stubborn pope named Boniface VIII (1294-1303). The king had even sent armed men to intimidate Boniface because the pope planned to excommunicate him. Boniface died shortly after this verbal assault and physical threat, perhaps as a result of the shock of the ugly episode.

Philip continued to pressure the papacy, this time in the person of the weak Pope Clement V (1305-1314), the first of the line of 14th-century popes who resided in Avignon and not Rome. This royalty-versus-papacy fightimp acted the Templars because Philip was in a towering pile of debt to the military order. Trying to get out of repaying, the French king accused the Templars of losing the Holy Land and not living up to their own high standards. Now he had the pope as a powerful tool to attack the Templars.

To take them down, Philip exploited the mystery behind the Templar practice of secrecy. He accused them of black magic, sodomy, and desecration of the cross and Eucharist. The French king engineered an overnight mass arrest of Templars in October 1307. Over the next four years, nearly all Templars were exonerated at trials held across Europe with the notable exception of France. There, after being tortured, some Templars confessed to doing things like spitting on the cross or denying Jesus during secret initiation rites. Many later took those confessions back, saying they had admitted such things only under pain and fear of death.

The final act took place at the general Church council held at Vienne from 1311 to 1312. Philip was in charge and made sure only bishops supporting him and not Pope Clement were present, to the point of knocking the names of anti-royal bishops off the list of those invited. Even under pressure from the French king, the bishops still voted in a large majority against abolishing the Templars and said the charges against them were not proven.

Philip played his hand by threatening violence against a pope once again. He pressured Clement to condemn his papal predecessor Boniface as a heretic. What the French king really wanted was to get out of debt to the Templars and seize their assets. Pope Clement allowed the Templars to be railroaded by trading off that threat against Boniface, which would endanger his own position as a papal successor. Clement went against his bishops and suppressed the Knights of the Temple on his own papal authority. Quite simply, the pope had been bullied by the king and he gave in. Clement praised “our dear son in Christ, Philip, the illustrious king of France, ” adding remarkably, “He was not moved by greed. He had no intention of claiming or appropriating for himself anything from the Templars’ property. “

But instead of handing their money and property over to Philip, as the king wanted, the pope showed some courage and assigned the Templar assets over to the Knights of the Hospital (the Hospitallers). Philip got his cut, of course, and was out of debt to an order that no longer existed, but he didn’t win entirely. Pope Clement never said whether or not the Templars were guilty of heresy or other crimes. ... s-templar/

In 1307, King Philip IV ordered the Templars to be arrested and tried for heresy.
The initial charge against the Templars was heresy; more specifically "when professing, the brothers were required to deny Christ, to spit on the Cross, and to place three 'obscene kisses' on the lower spine, the navel and the mouth; they were obliged to indulge in carnal relations with other members of the order, if requested; and finally they wore a small belt which had been consecrated by touching a strange idol, which looked like a human head with a long beard."[35] On August 12, 1308, the charges would be increased stating that the Templars worshipped idols, specifically made of a cat and a head, the latter having three faces.[36] The lists of articles 86 to 127[3] would add many other charges. None of these "idols" were ever produced. ... ts_Templar

On May 12, 1310, 54 Templars were burned at the stake. On March 18, 1314, Grand Master Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney were burned at the stake.

Coincidentally, the TS resurfaces with another Geoffroi de Charny, who was born in 1306. He was the one who was responsible for building the church in Lirey where the shroud was displayed at after his death in 1356.

I haven't seen any documentation linking these two men, but the similarity of the two are uncanny. Both have similar names and were French knights with an impressive resume.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2486

Post by POI »

Out of curiosity, I popped back into this thread to see if there was any headway. Welp, nope, there does not look to be any. Seems as though the OP-er is continuing to prop up an unfounded topic. Much like we have with the Ark seekers, or the archeologists still in search of clues and cues in support of an "Exodus", or maybe even like organizations such as Answers in Genesis -- who continue to peruse more pseudoscience to defend literal claims from Genesis.

Keep up the great work. You are really stumping us skeptics.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2487

Post by otseng »

POI wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:31 am Keep up the great work. You are really stumping us skeptics.
Must be stumping the skeptics since there's been a dearth of rational counterarguments from you guys. If this topic is an "unfounded topic", it should be easy to refute all the evidence I've presented. Instead, what we see is unsupported baseless assertions. We're not talking about some mythical cloth here, but an artifact that actually exists to this day. Shouldn't it be easy to demonstrate it's a medieval fake?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2488

Post by otseng »

Arthur Hughes - Sir Galahad - The Quest for the Holy Grail ... _Grail.jpg

The Holy Grail is a very popular legend.
From the knights of medieval legends to Indiana Jones, the holy grail has been the most sought-after Christian relic in popular culture for centuries.
The Holy Grail (French: Saint Graal, Breton: Graal Santel, Welsh: Greal Sanctaidd, Cornish: Gral) is a treasure that serves as an important motif in Arthurian literature. Various traditions describe the Holy Grail as a cup, dish, or stone with miraculous healing powers, sometimes providing eternal youth or sustenance in infinite abundance, often guarded in the custody of the Fisher King and located in the hidden Grail castle. By analogy, any elusive object or goal of great significance may be perceived as a "holy grail" by those seeking such.
Holy Grail, also called Grail, object sought by the knights of Arthurian legend as part of a quest that, particularly from the 13th century, had Christian meaning. The term grail evidently denoted a wide-mouthed or shallow vessel, though its precise etymology remains uncertain.

A holy grail has entered into our vocabulary as being:

"an object or goal that is sought after for its great significance"

"any ultimate, but elusive, goal pursued as in a quest" ... holy-grail

The word "grail" means:
A cup or plate that, according to medieval legend, was used by Jesus at the Last Supper and later became the object of many chivalric quests.

[Middle English greal, from Old French graal, from Medieval Latin gradālis, flat dish, of unknown origin.]
The word "grail" comes from the Latin gradale meaning "gradually, in
stages," and can mean cup, chalice, dish, tureen, bowl, or platter, but was also conceptualized as a
stone, or something ethereal or spiritual that defies explanation, culminating in the Holy Grail – the
Cup of Christ containing wine representing his blood. Thus the origin of the word encapsulates the
evolution and the transitions in its meaning, as well as the complexity of the underlying ideas. ... Holy_Grail

The first account of the Grail originated around 1190.
A "grail" (Old French: graal or greal), wondrous but not unequivocally holy, first appears in Perceval, the Story of the Grail, an unfinished chivalric romance written by Chrétien de Troyes around 1190.

This aligns with the shroud being more publicly visible after it was in Constantinople in 944. As pilgrims from Europe travelled to Jerusalem and went through the Byzantine area, they picked up many stories and legends along the way.

The basics of the Grail legend involves:
- An object that contains the body and blood of Jesus
- It is hidden
- Joseph of Arimathea
- Last Supper, Eucharist
- Providing eternal youth or sustenance
- Knights Templar

The early Grail was not identified to be specific object, but later did it become associated with the Holy Chalice.
Scholarly opinions have seen the origins of the Grail in magical life-giving and food-providing stones, cauldrons, and dishes.
In the late 12th century, Robert de Boron in Joseph d'Arimathie portrayed the Grail as Jesus's vessel from the Last Supper, which Joseph of Arimathea used to catch Christ's blood at the crucifixion. Thereafter, the Holy Grail became interwoven with the legend of the Holy Chalice, the Last Supper cup, an idea continued in works such as the Lancelot-Grail cycle and consequently the 15th-century Le Morte d'Arthur.

Joseph of Arimathea is associated with the Holy Grail.
Joseph of Arimathea's role in the Gospels is small. He appears suddenly on
Good Friday, and after giving Jesus a shroud and a tomb, he is "written out" of the
story. But Joseph is prominent in second- to eighth-century apocryphal texts from the
Byzantine East. And from the late twelfth century, in Western Grail legends, he
achieves a new prominence as the carrier of the Grail, the vessel of Jesus' blood, to the
West. Geoffrey As he has properly asked, "Why Joseph?" (1958, 240).
Joseph's intimate association with the NT burial sheet that enclosed the body of
Jesus and was stained with his blood and his later connection to the Grail establishes
him as an important link, virtually compelling a consideration of the lost Edessa burial-
cloth icon as that object inspiring the legends of the Holy Grail. Indeed, it may be
possible to demonstrate finally from Edessan texts and history that Joseph of Arimathea
never saw Britain, and certainly not with the chalice of the Last Supper.

It is claimed Joseph was a relative of Jesus.
It is said that Joseph of Arimathea was the great-uncle of Jesus (the Talmud indicates that Joseph
was the younger brother of the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and thus Joseph was her uncle
and Jesus' great-uncle).23 Jesus' father, also named Joseph, apparently died when the boy was
still young, and under both Hebrew and Roman law the next male of kin would become the legal guardian of
the family. Joseph of Arimathea would then have assumed that role, which would also
explain the fact that Joseph "went boldly unto Pilate… and Pilate gave the body [of Jesus] to
Joseph." (Mark 15:43-45). According to law, unless the body of an executed criminal was
claimed by the next of kin it was thrown into a common grave and all records would be wiped
out. ... Holy_Grail

The Holy Grail is associated with eternal life and healing.
The Holy Grail is considered in most texts and publications an artifact of incredible power capable of granting its bearer eternal life, abundance, healing, desires and unlimited youth. ... ts-templar

The Holy Grail is associated with the Templars.
The Templars, officially, were a military and religious order founded in the 12th century during the Crusades, with the aim of protecting Christian pilgrims traveling to the Holy Land. They became one of the most powerful and influential orders of the Middle Ages, amassing wealth and property across Europe.

Coincidentally, at the same time the Grail stories mentioned above (von Eschenbach, de Boron and de Troyes) appeared. The Templars' relationship with the Holy Grail is a recurring theme in many legends and has been trying to gain space with new evidence being raised through research. In this case, almost all point out that the Templars were the guardians of the Grail (artifact or bloodline). ... ts-templar

In early accounts, the Grail resided in Britium.
Like the legendary Holy Grail, this cloth was linked to Joseph of Arimathea,
resided in a place known as Britium, was thought to have contained Jesus' body,
captured Jesus' dripping blood on Golgotha, and was displayed only rarely and in a
gradual series of manifestations from Christ-child to crucified Jesus. The sources
clearly originate in the Byzantine East, and their presence in the Grail romances is
precisely concomitant with the presence of numerous Westerners in the East.

The link between Britain and Joseph and the Christianization of Britain is based possibly on an early translation error of "Britium".
But, despite the elaborate nature of these stories, the early Christianization of Britain is
hagiographic and largely based on a scholarly mistake. The error was made by the Venerable
Bede, a well-known English author who wrote the Ecclesiastical History of Britain. He relied on
an associate who reported that while studying the papal files in Rome, he discovered the record of
a letter received by Pope Eleutherus of the 2nd century from a King Lucio Britannio. This was
interpreted as a British King Lucius asking for assistance in converting his lands to the Faith. No
one had previously heard of a King Lucius of Britain (the country was still a Roman province at
that time), but Bede took this as evidence that Britain had been evangelized and become Christian
in that era. This reference was actually to King Abgar VIII from Edessa in Turkey (considered in
more detail below in the history of the Shroud), but as Bede was widely read and quoted, this
story was repeated. It grew in the telling and in 1342 John of Glastonbury updated William of
Malmesbury's well-known book, the Church in Glastonbury and inserted an unknown king
Arviragus who had been fictitiously invented by Geoffrey of Monmouth into this history, as the
ruler who provided the Glastonbury land for Joseph of Arimathea's church.

This reference in the Liber Pontificalis was the source of the error made by the Venerable Bede, the
English author mentioned above, which led to a fictional British King Lucius and to Bede's account
of the early Christianization of Britain. A similar confusion came from the misinterpretation of
another early document: Clement of Alexandria, one of the Fathers of the early Church who lived
during the same time as Lucius Abgar VIII, wrote that "Thaddaeus and Thomas were buried in
Britium Edessenorum" by which he meant "in the Birtha of the Edessenes." The Daisan River flows
around the city of Edessa, and at times it became a raging torrent. In 201 it spilled over the walls and
devastated the king's palace. Many people died in the flood and the king rebuilt his palace on high
ground, hence the Syriac word "Birtha" being used to describe it. That word was transliterated into
Latin as "Britium" and misinterpreted as meaning "Britain." ... Holy_Grail

A theme of the King Arthur and the Grail story is sin, betrayal, consequences, and search for peace.
The quest for the Holy Grail is thus a metaphor for Arthur's search for redemption and peace. He
had established the Round Table and performed many good works as king, but these were not
enough. Arthur is grieved by his own failures and seeks for something beyond this world,
something both higher and deeper. The search for the Holy Grail was thus an attempt to go
beyond nature and the natural world, to climb higher than the trees, to fly above the eagles, and go
beyond the atmosphere. It was an attempt to pierce the magic and the limited power of the Druids
as represented by Merlin and the natural world, and to seek for God and heaven.

It is very interesting that Merlin perishes from his own magic used against him by a woman. In
some tales he is trapped under a stone, and in others, in an oak tree, and dies. Both of these
natural elements, especially the oak tree, were symbols of Druidical power. Merlin, the ultimate
Druid, is therefore slain by his own gods and destroyed by the symbols of his own religion.
Druidism itself is thus seen as mortal and transient – a false hope – whereas the Holy Grail is
immortal and eternal. ... Holy_Grail

The idea of a cup used to catch Jesus's blood on the cross is not supported by any Biblical text. But the shroud containing his blood would make sense.
There is also no historical indication that the Last Supper cup was used to catch Christ's blood during
or after the crucifixion. That was purely a literary concept first stated by Robert de Boron as
described above. But there was an object which did contain the blood of Christ, namely the linen
cloths or shroud that was used to wrap his body in the tomb. ... Holy_Grail

The TS neatly explains the Grail legend based on the following:
1. The many faceted concepts associated with the Grail: human sinfulness and suffering, divine
forgiveness, the sacrifice necessary to pay for that forgiveness, the quest for personal meaning and
redemption, the longing for something beyond this world, and the desire for God, heaven, and
eternal life. As mentioned above, the word "grail" comes from the Latin gradale meaning
"gradually, in stages," so the origin of the word encapsulates the transitions in meaning and the
complexity of the underlying ideas, culminating in the Holy Grail – the Cup of Christ containing
wine representing his blood. All of these ideas are personified in the Shroud.

2. The grail stories were written after the Shroud was brought to Constantinople and kept there for a
period of 260 years. Constantinople had been the capital of Roman Empire, was the seat of the
Greek Orthodox Church, and for centuries was the largest and most influential city in the world.
Religion in Constantinople was extremely important, and one writer characterized religious
discussion there as "the sport of the people – the football and baseball of that era." Thus the
Shroud had a huge impact on Byzantine thought and society, made all the more significant
because of the significance of Constantinople as a major metropolis.

3. Robert de Boron wrote that Joseph of Arimathea used the Last Supper cup to catch the blood of
Christ on the cross, thus creating the literary heritage of the Holy Grail. But in his story Joseph
d'Arimathe, the Emperor Vespasian is healed, not by a chalice, but by a cloth containing the
image and blood of Christ. This was a clear literary allusion to the Shroud and was based on the
miraculous healing of Abgar V who may have been the historical Fisher-king that the story was
originally based on, who was healed by the power of the blood of Christ from the Shroud. De
Boron thus made the leap from the "graal" of Chrétien and transliterated it into the Holy Grail by
infusing his stories with Christian communion concepts, overlaid with Shroud imagery. His
stories in turn influenced the development of the King Arthur tales and the quest for the Holy
Grail which are still popular almost a millennium later.

4. During the time following the Shroud's appearance there was a new flowering of Eucharistic
symbolism that the image on the Shroud could then be combined with a realism of Christ's
passion, thus creating a "new language of Christian art." The Shroud was in large part
responsible for the development of Byzantine art and iconography, which was widely viewed, and
had a significant artistic impact on society that carried over into literary works.

5. The esoteric order of the Knights Templar who in the medieval mind epitomized Grail knights and
were reputed to be keepers of both the Shroud and the Holy Grail.

6. The fact that that Shroud, like the Holy Grail contained the blood of Christ, and therefore carried
the same ethereal and immortal significance. Early church leaders had often used the Last Supper
cup as an analogy for Jesus' death – the actual chalice representing the body of Christ and the
wine representing his blood, giving an ethereal significance to the cup. Byzantine iconography
would often picture the wounded Christ along with a chalice representing the "cup of sorrows"
that Jesus "drank" on the cross. The Catholic church teaches the doctrine of transubstantiation, the
belief that the wafer and wine administered to the communicant are a literal means of God's grace
and "become the body and blood of Christ" to that person. The "container" of Christ's blood
would therefore be the chalice used in the Eucharistic rites. Given these powerful religious
metaphors of a literal chalice becoming a source of divine grace, it is easy to understand how a
communion chalice was transformed into the Holy Grail of legend, and how the grail came to be
viewed as a cup, despite the fact that the origin of the grail stories was probably the Shroud. ... Holy_Grail

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2489

Post by otseng »

The legend of Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea in Britain is carried even to this day through one of the most popular songs in the UK, the Jerusalem hymn. It is considered to be the unofficial national anthem of the UK.
‘Jerusalem’ takes its words from a poem by William Blake and is often put forward as an alternative English national anthem. ... s-history/
It is a popular hymn, sung in churches, schools, as the anthem of the Women’s Institute and at sporting events – particularly rugby matches – across England. Many already consider it to be the unofficial English anthem. ... hymn-55668

Lyrics of the hymn:
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Amongst these dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of Fire
I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

The poem was originally written in 1804 by William Blake.
The hymn was originally penned as a poem by William Blake in 1804, but the lyrics were added to Parry’s music in 1916 during the gloom of World War I when the uplifting new English hymn was well received. ... hymn-55668

Sung at the Royal Wedding in 2011:

Of course, scholars do not believe there is any historical basis to Jesus ever visiting Britain.
Most scholars reject the historical authenticity of this story out of hand, and according to British folklore scholar A. W. Smith, "there was little reason to believe that an oral tradition concerning a visit made by Jesus to Britain existed before the early part of the twentieth century". ... cient_time

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2490

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2487
If this topic is an "unfounded topic", it should be easy to refute all the evidence I've presented.
Until you present an argument for the absence of distortion over the head of the image, you've presented no evidence which needs refuting.

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