How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3071

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:11 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3069
Yes, I could have missed other naturalistic proposals. Do you know of any other naturalistic proposals that exist that I have missed?
I would say that even the proposals you've mentioned warrant further examination.
So, my claim stands unchallenged that there are no other viable naturalistic explanations.

Of course the cloth collapse theory, or any other theory, needs further examination. All features of the shroud warrant further examination.
You believe that significant injury came from a few thorns in his scalp?
Do you want to have a crown of thorns placed on your head and then it repeatedly being beaten on you by soldiers?
The thorns would probably have bent and broken before penetrating the skull.
As I posted earlier, there are many thorns that penetrated the skull.
otseng wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:33 am
Completing the count of the clots (fig. 6), I have come to the conclusion that at least twenty
thorns were implanted in the occipital region. And since the injuries reach the parietal-occipital area, we can suppose that the crown of
thorns was in the form of a cap. These numerical calculations give us the certainty that at least
some thirty thorns (thirteen on forehead, twenty in the occipital region) perforated the head in
front and back. Since we have no way to study injuries produced in the parietal-temple area
(because the sides of the head did not register) we can deduce that at least some fifty thorns
tortured the head of the Crucified.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi01part5.pdf
The thorns most likely is from the Gundelia tournefortii and there is evidence of its pollen on the shroud.
Dr. Uri Baruch, palynologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority who made his M.SC. and Ph.D. dissertations on the flora of Israel, analyzed most of Frei's 1973 sticky tape pollen specimens and ten of the twenty-five 1978 sticky tapes. He examined 165 pollen grains, of which 45 (27.3%) were Gundelia tournefortii. On some of the tapes, he found more than ten grains in an area less than 5x1 cm.

The authenticity of the Near East as the source of the Shroud of Turin is completely verified to me as a botanist through the images and pollen grains of Gundelia tournefortii and the images of Zygophyllum dumosum leaves.
https://www.shroud.com/danin2.htm
A large quantity of pollen assigned to Gundelia has been found on the Shroud of Turin, which may suggest that the crown of thorns was made from Gundelia.

In 1998 pollen found on the Shroud of Turin was analysed and with 29%, the pollen assigned to Gundelia was the most numerous. Such a high density makes it very unlikely that this would merely be the result of the Shroud having been exposed to the wind, particularly because Gundelia is an insect-pollinated, not a wind-pollinated plant. Some researchers have suggested this implies that the crown of thorns was made from Gundelia-branches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundelia

In spring time, it dries up after it has bloomed.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gund ... fortii.jpg

It then separates from the root and becomes a tumbleweed.
By mid-May, the akoub stem has separated from the root, allowing the entire plant to be carried by the wind.
The whole plant is round-so that it can roll like a ball. When the seeds of the dead fruit are ready to be dispersed, the base of the stem is disconnected from the thick root by means of an especially weak tissue which develops at just the right time. The plant then rolls, driven by the wind, dispersing its seeds on steppe and field.
http://www.flowersinisrael.com/Gundelia ... i_page.htm

Most likely Roman soldier just grabbed some tumbleweed and pounded it into his head. I personally do not believe they weaved it in any way to make a laurel of thorns.
Carrying the cross wouldn't have necessarily opened the swelled skin, but we do see evidence of abrasion marks made by carrying the cross.
It's most likely that carrying a cross would open swollen skin. Even a skinned knee or elbow can bleed, and skin swollen through abrasion is damaged and even more sensitive.
I don't deny the abrasions would've produced blood. Could abrasions have caused further damage at the scourged locations? Perhaps. I'm not aware of evidence of this one way or the other.
As you often point out, it's about evidence----and the necessary evidence is currently lacking.
The evidence is the scourge marks that are dumbbell shaped from the UV imaging.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3072

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3071
So, my claim stands unchallenged that there are no other viable naturalistic explanations.
There isn't that much to challenge given the striking similarities between the Turin cloth image and numerous images produced by known natural means.

Of course the cloth collapse theory, or any other theory, needs further examination. All features of the shroud warrant further examination.
Again----the cloth collapse "theory" doesn't qualify as theory. It can't be replicated.

As I posted earlier, there are many thorns that penetrated the skull.
And on your say-so, that must be the case?

The thorns most likely is from the Gundelia tournefortii and there is evidence of its pollen on the shroud.
Okay, but that has nothing to do with what kind of injury they would cause.

Most likely Roman soldier just grabbed some tumbleweed and pounded it into his head. I personally do not believe they weaved it in any way to make a laurel of thorns.
More likely it would have been pounded onto his head. Being generally familiar with desert flora, I can say with fair confidence that those spindly-looking thorns would probably have bent and broken under not that much pressure.

I don't deny the abrasions would've produced blood. Could abrasions have caused further damage at the scourged locations? Perhaps. I'm not aware of evidence of this one way or the other.
"The victim was stripped of his clothing, and his hands were tied to an upright post. He was then struck on the back with the whip encircling the side and part of the front of the chest. The iron balls of the whips resulted in deep contusion, and sharp piece of sheep bones caused deep cuts into the skin and subcutaneous tissue."

https://www.reviewofreligions.org/11445 ... pective-2/


"The whip consisted of several strips of leather. In the middle of the strips were metal balls that hit the skin, causing deep bruising. In addition, sheep bone was attached to the tips of each strip.

"When the bone makes contact with Jesus’ skin, it digs into His muscles, tearing out chunks of flesh and exposing the bone beneath. The flogging leaves the skin on Jesus’ back in long ribbons.
"

https://www.apu.edu/articles/the-scienc ... ucifixion/


As you often point out, it's about evidence----and the necessary evidence is currently lacking.
The evidence is the scourge marks that are dumbbell shaped from the UV imaging.
The evidence of such a structure dating from the 1st century is what's lacking.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3073

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:53 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3071
So, my claim stands unchallenged that there are no other viable naturalistic explanations.
There isn't that much to challenge given the striking similarities between the Turin cloth image and numerous images produced by known natural means.
Then just please provide a viable naturalistic explanation instead of just asserting there is one.
Of course the cloth collapse theory, or any other theory, needs further examination. All features of the shroud warrant further examination.
Again----the cloth collapse "theory" doesn't qualify as theory. It can't be replicated.
I use the term "theory" in a general sense. I'm not proposing it as a scientific theory. But again, even scientists have theories that cannot be replicated, like the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution.
As I posted earlier, there are many thorns that penetrated the skull.
And on your say-so, that must be the case?
It's a rational inference. There are blood stains on the head and the text says the soldiers repeatedly beat him on the head. Why would they have to do that? I believe it was so the crown of thorns would be lodged into the skull so it could stick to the head and not fall off.
More likely it would have been pounded onto his head. Being generally familiar with desert flora, I can say with fair confidence that those spindly-looking thorns would probably have bent and broken under not that much pressure.
Are you familiar with Gundelia tournefortii and how hard are its thorns when dried? I don't claim to know myself, but it is something I can't find good documentation on.
As you often point out, it's about evidence----and the necessary evidence is currently lacking.
Really the only evidence we have about the details of the scourging of Jesus is the shroud itself. Even the Bible does not go into detail about it. So for anyone to make an assessment of the scourging, they would have to use the evidence of the shroud. It is obvious, at least to me, the marks are from dumbbell shaped endings of a scourge and not shaped like deep lacerations.
The evidence of such a structure dating from the 1st century is what's lacking.
You mean lack of evidence for the shroud dating to the first century? I already gave evidence of this:
viewtopic.php?p=1120581#p1120581

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3074

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3073

There isn't that much to challenge given the striking similarities between the Turin cloth image and numerous images produced by known natural means.
Then just please provide a viable naturalistic explanation instead of just asserting there is one.
Why? You're just asserting that layered cloth collapse is the only explanation with no mechanism to support it.

If someone had been challenged to present a natural cause for the sliding stones of Death Valley on the day before the wind/frost explanation was proposed, would that have detracted from the proposal?

I use the term "theory" in a general sense. I'm not proposing it as a scientific theory. But again, even scientists have theories that cannot be replicated, like the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution.
Scientifically is the only way a theory matters.

Observable physics attests to the Big Bang, and there are examples of evolution not only in the fossil record but in the living world as well.

Are you familiar with Gundelia tournefortii and how hard are its thorns when dried? I don't claim to know myself, but it is something I can't find good documentation on.
Then you don't have anything to go on.

It's a rational inference. There are blood stains on the head and the text says the soldiers repeatedly beat him on the head. Why would they have to do that?
They wouldn't have had to; they might have just done it.
Really the only evidence we have about the details of the scourging of Jesus is the shroud itself.
You're assuming that the cloth is such evidence.

You mean lack of evidence for the shroud dating to the first century? I already gave evidence of this:
I mean lack of evidence of the properly shaped flagellum dating to the first century.

As for the image itself dating to that period:

"Researchers said that the findings could indicate that that the shroud made its "historic [...] presumed journey" from the Near East and was taken around the world before being kept in Italy; or that it has its origins in medieval Europe where and was contaminated by those who travelled to it.

"In a further twist, the study indicated that it may have been manufactured in India
.
"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 93101.html


"In addition, the shroud in which the leprosy sufferer was buried provides a rare insight into the character of funerary shrouds at the time of Jesus. It is, says a leading textile historian, very different from the Turin Shroud, which some believe is the burial cloth that was used to wrap the body of Jesus.

Finding the shroud at all is a very rare event: normal practice at the time was to wrap the deceased in cloth and lay them in a tomb until the flesh had decayed, then retrieve the bones and place them in a stone chest, or ossuary for secondary burial.

This is also the first time fragments of a burial shroud have been found from the time of Jesus. Textile historian Dr Orit Shamir characterises this as a ‘simple two-way weave’. Based on the assumption that this is representative of a typical burial shroud widely used at the time of Jesus, Dr Shamir concludes that the much more complex weave of the Turin Shroud suggests it did not originate from 1st century Jerusalem.
"

https://www.world-archaeology.com/world ... test-news/

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3075

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:05 pm If someone had been challenged to present a natural cause for the sliding stones of Death Valley on the day before the wind/frost explanation was proposed, would that have detracted from the proposal?
Many had proposed naturalistic explanations prior to finding the solution for the sliding stones. Also, nobody had really studied the sliding stones before, whereas the shroud is the most scientifically studied artifact. Does it even make any sense for it to be subject to so much study and yet we really have no complete explanation for any of the features of the shroud? If it's a medieval fake, no, it makes no sense. If it's created supernaturally, then it would make more sense.
I use the term "theory" in a general sense. I'm not proposing it as a scientific theory. But again, even scientists have theories that cannot be replicated, like the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution.
Scientifically is the only way a theory matters.
No, theories also exist outside of science. I use the general definition of theory, which is not limited to a scientific theory.
A theory is a rational type of abstract thinking about a phenomenon, or the results of such thinking. The process of contemplative and rational thinking is often associated with such processes as observational study or research. Theories may be scientific, belong to a non-scientific discipline, or no discipline at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
Observable physics attests to the Big Bang, and there are examples of evolution not only in the fossil record but in the living world as well.
Observable evidence of the shroud attests to its authenticity as well.

The fossil record does not attest to macroevolution, but that's for another thread.
Are you familiar with Gundelia tournefortii and how hard are its thorns when dried? I don't claim to know myself, but it is something I can't find good documentation on.
Then you don't have anything to go on.
Well, you're the one claiming the thorns are too soft to penetrate the skull, so on what basis do you believe this?

As for my claim, we obviously see blood stains, so at a minimum it pierced the scalp. In order for the crown of thorns to stay on the head, there's only two ways for this to happen, either the thorns also embedded into the skull or something was tied around the head to hold the crown into place. There's no mention in the text of the soldiers tying the thorns on, but it does say they repeatedly beat him on the head. So the most reasonable inference is the thorns were embedded into the skull.
Really the only evidence we have about the details of the scourging of Jesus is the shroud itself.
You're assuming that the cloth is such evidence.
I have logically argued the cloth is the burial cloth of Jesus over the past 150 pages of this thread. There is no assumption, but I've spent one of the longest in any of the threads I've ever participated in to argue for this.
"Researchers said that the findings could indicate that that the shroud made its "historic [...] presumed journey" from the Near East and was taken around the world before being kept in Italy; or that it has its origins in medieval Europe where and was contaminated by those who travelled to it.

"In a further twist, the study indicated that it may have been manufactured in India
.
"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 93101.html
They were referring to "Uncovering the sources of DNA found on the Turin Shroud" Nature report. I covered that here:
viewtopic.php?p=1120453#p1120453
This is also the first time fragments of a burial shroud have been found from the time of Jesus. Textile historian Dr Orit Shamir characterises this as a ‘simple two-way weave’. Based on the assumption that this is representative of a typical burial shroud widely used at the time of Jesus, Dr Shamir concludes that the much more complex weave of the Turin Shroud suggests it did not originate from 1st century Jerusalem.[/i]"

https://www.world-archaeology.com/world ... test-news/
No, the herringbone weave pattern existed in the 1st century. I covered this at:
viewtopic.php?p=1112690#p1112690

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3076

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3075
Many had proposed naturalistic explanations prior to finding the solution for the sliding stones. Also, nobody had really studied the sliding stones before, whereas the shroud is the most scientifically studied artifact.
And:

"Probably no sample for carbon dating has ever been subjected to such scrupulously careful examination and treatment, nor perhaps ever will again."
(Harry Gove, co-inventor of radiocarbon dating)

Three laboratories independently confirmed that the fabric is medieval.

The tested material was subjected to a rigorous and highly detailed cleaning process to remove contamination.

Rather than test with an older method, the scientists used a newer method which was more sensitive.

The researchers, including textiles expert Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, confirmed that the tested material was not part of a repair patch.

All of this is part of the extensive scientific study conducted on the cloth. Rumors may fly about the publication of the results, but they are the results nonetheless. You can't proclaim the cloth "the most scientifically studied artifact" and then backtrack into the convenient conclusion that the scientific study which doesn't skew in your favor is wrong.

No, theories also exist outside of science.
In the study of an artifact, only scientific theory matters.

Observable evidence of the shroud attests to its authenticity as well.
Not the observable evidence of the carbon dating, or the UNobservable NON-evidence of wrap-around distortion. You resort to a fanciful excuse for that.
The fossil record does not attest to macroevolution, but that's for another thread.
Fair enough. And here's a starting point for another thread:

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowled ... -96679683/

Well, you're the one claiming the thorns are too soft to penetrate the skull, so on what basis do you believe this?
On the basis of my general familiarity with desert flora.

In order for the crown of thorns to stay on the head, there's only two ways for this to happen, either the thorns also embedded into the skull or something was tied around the head to hold the crown into place. There's no mention in the text of the soldiers tying the thorns on, but it does say they repeatedly beat him on the head. So the most reasonable inference is the thorns were embedded into the skull.
A third way is for the thorns to simply get tangled in the hair.

I have logically argued the cloth is the burial cloth of Jesus over the past 150 pages of this thread. There is no assumption, but I've spent one of the longest in any of the threads I've ever participated in to argue for this.
You've done more than that. It seems that you've ridden the shroud of Turin hobby horse through numerous threads since 2004. It looks like a genuine fixation.

They were referring to "Uncovering the sources of DNA found on the Turin Shroud" Nature report. I covered that here:
......which doesn't refute the assertion that it may have been manufactured in India.

No, the herringbone weave pattern existed in the 1st century.
But apparently it wasn't common in 1st-century Jerusalem.

Does it even make any sense for it to be subject to so much study and yet we really have no complete explanation for any of the features of the shroud? If it's a medieval fake, no, it makes no sense. If it's created supernaturally, then it would make more sense.
If it's created supernaturally, which supernatural narrative does it best fit? Does it make any sense in the context of the Christian narrative, which is riddled with inconsistency and contradiction around Jesus's doings and teaching? If it's truly supernatural, no.

You yourself pointed out several spiritual texts which mention Jesus. Any of them could potentially be a better fit than the messy story of the Christian Bible. So if you're going to make the image on the cloth out to be supernatural, you might want to consider a less problematic foundation for it.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3077

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:10 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3075
Many had proposed naturalistic explanations prior to finding the solution for the sliding stones. Also, nobody had really studied the sliding stones before, whereas the shroud is the most scientifically studied artifact.
And:

"Probably no sample for carbon dating has ever been subjected to such scrupulously careful examination and treatment, nor perhaps ever will again."
(Harry Gove, co-inventor of radiocarbon dating)

Three laboratories independently confirmed that the fabric is medieval.

The tested material was subjected to a rigorous and highly detailed cleaning process to remove contamination.

Rather than test with an older method, the scientists used a newer method which was more sensitive.

The researchers, including textiles expert Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, confirmed that the tested material was not part of a repair patch.

All of this is part of the extensive scientific study conducted on the cloth. Rumors may fly about the publication of the results, but they are the results nonetheless. You can't proclaim the cloth "the most scientifically studied artifact" and then backtrack into the convenient conclusion that the scientific study which doesn't skew in your favor is wrong.
The 1988 C-14 testing has nothing to do with a naturalistic explanation for the shroud. They did not even offer any rational explanation for how the cloth got created. All they could come up with was:

"There was a multimillion pound business in making forgeries during the fourteenth century. Someone just got a bit of linen, faked it up and flogged it." Teddy Hall

As for the entire C-14 dating, I spent extensive time on this and summarized it at:
viewtopic.php?p=1114068#p1114068

Please provide counterarguments to my rebuttals instead of simply reasserting the C-14 claims.
No, theories also exist outside of science.
In the study of an artifact, only scientific theory matters.
Sorry, but cosmologists have already breached this. A singularity is not scientific . Multiverse is not scientific. Other dimensions is not scientific.

If anyone wants to claim something that is beyond the laws of physics, is not measureable or testable, exists beyond our universe, and is outside our realm of space and time and claims it is scientific, then the same standard should then be applied to supernaturalistic explanations for the TS.
Observable evidence of the shroud attests to its authenticity as well.
Not the observable evidence of the carbon dating, or the UNobservable NON-evidence of wrap-around distortion. You resort to a fanciful excuse for that.
I've already spent a significant amount of time rebutting both of these.
The fossil record does not attest to macroevolution, but that's for another thread.
Fair enough. And here's a starting point for another thread:

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowled ... -96679683/
Perhaps I can debate that after the conclusion of this thread. If anyone wants to see my position on evolution, I've already debated this elsewhere on this forum.
Well, you're the one claiming the thorns are too soft to penetrate the skull, so on what basis do you believe this?
On the basis of my general familiarity with desert flora.
We're specifically discussing the Gundelia tournefortii. I'm open to any evidence the dried thorns are not able to puncture a skull and then I'll accept this proposal has been falsified.
A third way is for the thorns to simply get tangled in the hair.
It wouldn't be attached as securely. Perhaps a few thorns can be tangled in hair, but not an entire tumbleweed. Also, the text says nothing about the soldiers tangling his hair with the thorns.
I have logically argued the cloth is the burial cloth of Jesus over the past 150 pages of this thread. There is no assumption, but I've spent one of the longest in any of the threads I've ever participated in to argue for this.
You've done more than that. It seems that you've ridden the shroud of Turin hobby horse through numerous threads since 2004. It looks like a genuine fixation.
Not sure what you mean by "ridden the shroud of Turin hobby horse through numerous threads". How many threads have I debated about the TS prior to this thread?

I readily admit I now have a "genuine fixation" on the TS. Two years ago, it really didn't cross my mind very much.
which doesn't refute the assertion that it may have been manufactured in India.
It could have been. How does it prevent it from being first century?
But apparently it wasn't common in 1st-century Jerusalem.
Nobody is claiming it was common in first century Jerusalem. There was nothing common about Jesus's burial.
If it's created supernaturally, which supernatural narrative does it best fit?
Jesus's resurrection.
Does it make any sense in the context of the Christian narrative, which is riddled with inconsistency and contradiction around Jesus's doings and teaching? If it's truly supernatural, no.
Since this thread does not assume inerrancy, it's an irrelevant accusation.
You yourself pointed out several spiritual texts which mention Jesus. Any of them could potentially be a better fit than the messy story of the Christian Bible. So if you're going to make the image on the cloth out to be supernatural, you might want to consider a less problematic foundation for it.
Go ahead and present those and we can compare it to the Bible.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3078

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3077
As for the entire C-14 dating, I spent extensive time on this
You've quoted sources favorable to your position, and some of those sources have been questioned by others.

Sorry, but cosmologists have already breached this. A singularity is not scientific . Multiverse is not scientific. Other dimensions is not scientific.
.....which is why they're actually hypothesis and not theory.

If anyone wants to claim something that is beyond the laws of physics, is not measureable or testable, exists beyond our universe, and is outside our realm of space and time and claims it is scientific, then the same standard should then be applied to supernaturalistic explanations for the TS.
Right----which is why you should regard the fanciful "cloth collapse" assertion as hypothesis, not as theory.

We're specifically discussing the Gundelia tournefortii. I'm open to any evidence the dried thorns are not able to puncture a skull and then I'll accept this proposal has been falsified.
Yucca Gloriosa Variegata (Spanish Dagger) has some pretty sturdy thorns, and I doubt that they would penetrate a skull.


A third way is for the thorns to simply get tangled in the hair.
It wouldn't be attached as securely.
It wouldn't have to be attached as securely, just attached. And blows on the head would force it on more tightly.
Also, the text says nothing about the soldiers tangling his hair with the thorns.
You conveniently dismiss inerrancy, and now you're hung up on what the text doesn't say?

Not sure what you mean by "ridden the shroud of Turin hobby horse through numerous threads". How many threads have I debated about the TS prior to this thread?
You've mentioned the Turin cloth in:

"Shroud of Turin" (you started)
March 13, 2004

"Are there any evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?" (you started)
March 11, 2004

"Broken bones of god" (your heading: "bones and shroud")
begun Jan. 30th, 2005

"What would convince you that God doesn't exist?"
begun July 20, 2005

....and the present.


which doesn't refute the assertion that it may have been manufactured in India.
It could have been. How does it prevent it from being first century?
A 1st-century cloth could have a medieval image on it.

Nobody is claiming it was common in first century Jerusalem. There was nothing common about Jesus's burial.
Then why does the fourth gospel say that the burial itself followed the custom of the Jews?


You yourself pointed out several spiritual texts which mention Jesus. Any of them could potentially be a better fit than the messy story of the Christian Bible. So if you're going to make the image on the cloth out to be supernatural, you might want to consider a less problematic foundation for it.
Go ahead and present those and we can compare it to the Bible.
What good would that do when you yourself say that the Bible isn't inerrant?

If, in the text of the Christian Bible, Jesus had said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'do not commit adultery'. But I say to you: commit all the adultery you want. There's nothing wrong with it."

.....would you still hold the Turin cloth to be authoritative proof of his resurrection?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3079

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:10 pm You've quoted sources favorable to your position, and some of those sources have been questioned by others.
Everything is questioned by others. You're free to cite those counterarguments and we can debate those.
Sorry, but cosmologists have already breached this. A singularity is not scientific . Multiverse is not scientific. Other dimensions is not scientific.
.....which is why they're actually hypothesis and not theory.
No, they are called theories as well.

"What is multiverse theory?"
https://www.livescience.com/multiverse
String theories require extra dimensions of spacetime for their mathematical consistency. In bosonic string theory, spacetime is 26-dimensional, while in superstring theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-theory it is 11-dimensional. In order to describe real physical phenomena using string theory, one must therefore imagine scenarios in which these extra dimensions would not be observed in experiments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
If anyone wants to claim something that is beyond the laws of physics, is not measureable or testable, exists beyond our universe, and is outside our realm of space and time and claims it is scientific, then the same standard should then be applied to supernaturalistic explanations for the TS.
Right----which is why you should regard the fanciful "cloth collapse" assertion as hypothesis, not as theory.
Again, I use the term theory in a general sense. I've already provided a definition of theory from wikipedia that allows the usage of the term in a non-scientific sense. Continuing to quibble about the usage of the term is futile. As long as I use the term in any accepted definition of the term is valid and should be non-controversial.

Another definition of theory:
1: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
the wave theory of light
2a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action
her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn
2b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances
—often used in the phrase in theory
in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all
3a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
3b: an unproved assumption : conjecture
3c: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
theory of equations
4: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art
music theory
5: abstract thought : speculation
6: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
And blows on the head would force it on more tightly.
Yes, and I maintain those blows would be more secure by the thorns lodging into the skull. Well, to really settle this, someone should do some experiments and see if dried Gundelia thorns can be embedded into a skull.
Also, the text says nothing about the soldiers tangling his hair with the thorns.
You conveniently dismiss inerrancy, and now you're hung up on what the text doesn't say?
It's not that I've conveniently dismissed inerrancy, it's the assumption from the very first post of this thread.

You're the one claiming the thorns got tangled in Jesus's hair and I'm simply pointing out the text says nothing about this.
Not sure what you mean by "ridden the shroud of Turin hobby horse through numerous threads". How many threads have I debated about the TS prior to this thread?
You've mentioned the Turin cloth in:

"Shroud of Turin" (you started)
March 13, 2004

"Are there any evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?" (you started)
March 11, 2004

"Broken bones of god" (your heading: "bones and shroud")
begun Jan. 30th, 2005

"What would convince you that God doesn't exist?"
begun July 20, 2005
Good research by the way.

Let's go over those threads. First off, those threads are over 18 years ago.

The second thread you mentioned is at:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90

In that thread I spawned the first thread to discuss the TS. And there's only 3 pages in that thread.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=92

The third thread only has 4 pages:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1203

The fourth thread is at:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1920

In that thread I only mentioned the TS in passing:
viewtopic.php?p=31225#p31225
A 1st-century cloth could have a medieval image on it.
It certainly could. But basically what that option would mean is a medieval forger got everything right, including using a first century cloth.

But that option doesn't make sense though. It is only recently that we've discovered evidence the cloth is first century. Nobody prior would even know or care about its dating. Why would an artist go to such extreme when it would not be appreciated until hundreds of years later?

As author John Walsh states, “It is either the most awesome and instructive relic of Jesus Christ in existence or it is the most ingenious, unbelievably clever, product of the human mind and hand on record."
Nobody is claiming it was common in first century Jerusalem. There was nothing common about Jesus's burial.
Then why does the fourth gospel say that the burial itself followed the custom of the Jews?
As I pointed out earlier, I argue because Jesus's body was not washed according to exceptions as pointed out by the Mishnah.
If, in the text of the Christian Bible, Jesus had said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'do not commit adultery'. But I say to you: commit all the adultery you want. There's nothing wrong with it."

.....would you still hold the Turin cloth to be authoritative proof of his resurrection?
That text has nothing to do with the resurrection.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3080

Post by otseng »

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hum ... _1754.jpeg

David Hume (1711-1776) is often cited by skeptics to dispute miraculous claims and to dismiss Christianity. Hume wrote about it in Philosophical Essays Concerning Human Understanding:
Our Evidence, then, for the Truth of the Christian Religion is less than the Evidence for the Truth of our Senses; because, even in the first Authors of our Religion, it was no greater; and 'tis evident it must diminish in passing from them to their Disciples; not can any one be so certain of the Truth of their Testimony as of the immediate Objects of his Senses.
Evidence for Christianity has primarily relied on testimonial evidence (textual evidence). Hume claims "Truth of the Senses" (observational evidence) is stronger than testimonial evidence, particularly when it is not first hand accounts.
A wise Man, therefore, proportions his Belief to the Evidence.
Don't disagree with this.
All Probability, then, supposes an Opposition of Experiments and Observations; where the one Side is found to over-balance the other, and to produce a Degree of Evidence, proportion'd to the Superiority.

There are a Number of Circumstances to be taken into Consideration in all Judgments of this Kind; and our ultimate Standard, by which we determine all Disputes, that may arise concerning them, is always deriv'd from Experience and Observation.
He asserts direct observational evidence is the strongest type of evidence and not testimonial evidence. In a court of law, this is not actually true. If someone confesses guilt to a crime, it is one of the strongest forms of evidence.
A Miracle is a Violation of the Laws of Nature; and as a firm and inalterable Experience has establish'd these Laws, the Proof against a Miracle, from the very Nature of the Fact, is as entire as any Argument from Experience can possibly be imagin'd, Why is it more than probable, that all Men must die; that Lead cannot, of itself, remain suspended in the Air; that Fire consumes Wood, and is extinguish'd by Water; unless it be that these Events are found agreeable to the Laws of Nature, and there is requir'd a Violation of these Laws, or in other Words, a Miracle, to prevent them? Nothing is esteem'd a Miracle if it ever happen in the common Course of Nature. 'Tis no Miracle that a Man in seeming good Health should die of a sudden; because such a Kind of Death, tho' more unusual than any other, has yet been frequently observ'd to happen.
Hume states since direct observational evidence of miracles is lacking, we should be skeptical of miraculous claims. I don't disagree with this too much, but I would disagree that because we do not personally observe miracles that it means all miracles can be categorically ruled out. There are many things that we do not have direct observational evidence for, but it does not mean they do not exist. Dark energy and dark matter supposedly makes up for 95% of the universe, but there is no direct observational evidence of either of them.

Violating the laws of nature also does not rule out the existence of something. Singularities do not follow the laws of nature, but few claim that singularities do not exist.
But 'tis a Miracle, that a dead Man should come to Life; because that has never been observ'd, in any Age or Country. There must, therefore, be an uniform Experience against every miraculous Event, otherwise the Event would not merit that Appellation. And as an uniform Experience amounts to a Proof, there is here a direct and full Proof, from the Nature of the Fact, against the Existence of any Miracle; nor can such a Proof be destroy'd, or the Miracle render'd credible, but by an opposite Proof, that is superior.
True, nobody has observed a bona fide dead person come back to life. And in particular, someone that has been beaten, scourged, crucified, pierced in the side, and interred in a tomb for over 36 hours and then to walk out alive. But because it has not ever happened is not "proof" it cannot happen. It only means it is improbable to happen.

The Big Bang has never been observed to happen. And as far as we know, it has not happened more than once. So, using Hume's logic, therefore the Big Bang never happened.
The plain Consequence is (and 'tis a general Maxim worthy of our Attention) "That no Testimony is sufficient to establish a Miracle, unless the Testimony be of such a Kind, that its Falshood would be more miraculous, than the Fact, which it endeavours to establish: And even in that Case, there is a mutual Destruction of Arguments, and the Superior only gives us an Assurance suitable to that Degree of Force, which remains, after deducting the Inferior."
This is a false dichotomy. He says the only way to accept the testimony of a miracle is to compare it to the testimony of another miracle.
When any one tells me, that he saw a dead Man restor'd to Life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this Person should either deceive or be deceiv'd, or that the Fact he relates should really have happen'd. I weigh the one Miracle against the other, and according to the Superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my Decision, and always reject the greater Miracle. If the Flashood of his Testimony would be more miraculous, than the Event, which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my Belief or Opinion.
Someone being deceived is not a miracle. Hume defines a miracle as "a violation of the laws of nature." So, his argument and usage of the term miracle are not consistent.

However, I will agree if there is a viable naturalistic explanation, it should be accepted over any miraculous claim.
It forms a very strong Presumption against all supernatural and miraculous Relations, that they are always found chiefly to abound amongst ignorant and barbarous Nations;
This is an ad hominem argument and fallacious.
Upon the whole, then, it appears, that no Testimony for any Kind of Miracle can ever possibly amount to a Probability, much less to a Proof; and that even supposing it amounted to a Proof, 'twould be oppos'd by another Proof, deriv'd from the very Nature of the Fact, which it would endeavour to establish. 'Tis Experience only, which gives Authority to human Testimony; and 'tis the same Experience, which assures us of the Laws of Nature.
I would agree only probabilities exist for testimonial claims and is not proof of it being true.

I would also agree if a testimony aligns with normal human experience then it is generally to be accepted over other explanations.
When, therefore, these two Kinds of Experience are contrary, we have nothing to do but subtract the one from the other, and embrace an Opinion, either on the one Side or the other, with that Assurance, which arises from the Remainder. But according to the Principle here explain'd, this Subtraction, with regard to all popular Religions, amounts to an entire Annihilation; and therefore we may establish it as a Maxim, that no human Testimony can have such Force as to prove a Miracle, and make it a just Foundation for any such System of Religion.
Not really sure what Hume is claiming here about subtraction, popular religions, or annihilation. But it seems like what he is saying is religions can all be discounted if they only rely on human testimony. Well, almost all human history relies on human testimony. Artifact evidence alone cannot fully reconstruct historical events. Even with an artifact, a narrative account needs to be written or drawn on it to know what happened in the past.
Our most holy Religion is founded on Faith, not on Reason; and 'tis a sure Method of exposing it to put it to such a Trial as it is, by no Means, fitted to endure.
I would disagree that Christianity is founded on faith and not reason. Skeptics like to claim this, but it is a false accusation. Out of all the religions, Christianity has a large contingency of apologists now and throughout history. And they base their arguments on rational reasoning and not merely on theological assertions.
To make this more evident, let us examine those Miracles, related in Scripture; and not to lose ourselves in too wide a Field, let us confine ourselves to such as we find in the Pentateuch, which we shall examine, as these pretended Christians would have us, not as the Word or Testimony of God himself, but as the Production of a mere human Writer and Historian.
OK, let's look at the evidence Hume presents to argue against the Pentateuch.
Here then we are first to consider a Book, presented to us by a barbarous and ignorant People, wrote in an Age when they were still more barbarous, and in all Probability long after the Facts it relates; corroborated by no concurring Testimony, and resembling those fabulous Accounts, which every Nation gives of its Origin.
The argument is an ad hominem and a fallacious argument. As CS Lewis notes, it is chronological snobbery to think people in the past were barbarous and ignorant people and we are the smart and sophisticated people.
Upon reading this Book, we find it full of Prodigies and Miracles. It gives an Account of a State of the World and of human Nature entirely different from the present.
Yes, things in the past were different than things are now. We even see this in the fossil record where living things in the past were much larger than they are now.
Of our Fall from that State: Of the Age of Man, extended to near a thousand Years:
If living things in the past were much larger, then obviously they also had lived much longer.
Of the Destruction of the World by a Deluge
Actually, the evidence of geology is better explained by a worldwide flood as I discussed earlier in this thread.
Of the arbitrary Choice of one People, as the Favourites of Heaven; and that People, the Countrymen of the Author
Don't see any relevance of this to the Bible being fictional.
Of their Deliverance from Bondage by Prodigies the most astonishing imaginable
I'm assuming he's referring to the exodus from Egypt. I've also discussed this earlier in this thread.
I desire any one to lay his Hand upon his Heart, and after serious Consideration declare, whether he thinks, that the Falshood of such a Book, supported by such a Testimony, would be more extraordinary and miraculous than all the Miracles it relates; which is, however, necessary to make it be receiv'd, according to the Measures of Probability above establish'd.
After serious consideration and study, I lay my hand on my heart and I do declare the truth of the Torah and literally accept all the major claims in it.
So that, upon the whole, we may conclude, that the Christian Religion, not only was at first attended with Miracles, but even at this Day cannot be believ'd by any reasonable Person without one. Mere Reason is insufficient to convince us of its Veracity: And whoever is mov'd by Faith to assent to it, is conscious of a continued Miracle in his own Person, which subverts all the Principles of his Understanding, and gives him a Determination to believe what is most contrary to Custom and Experience.
I conclude the opposite. The Christian religion is found to be truthful when one deeply studies it, which involves looking at extra-Biblical evidence from many disciplines. Those who reject the Christian claims have to resort to fallacious arguments and simply just reassert skeptical claims without a deep study of the topic.

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