How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[otseng]

God does not need us defending him/it for something some of us said he/it did.

Ultimately yes. But this discussion is really for theists that have a misconception that God is a moral monster. And I'm arguing God is not really like that and God has justifications for his actions and is not xenophobic or capricious.

[otseng]

What makes an opinion of a god objective? A bunch of likeminded followers writing books about that god?

I've explained this already:

“God is not merely good, but goodness; goodness is not merely divine, but God."
C.S. Lewis

https://quotefancy.com/quote/780720/C-S ... ne-but-God

As stated in 1 John, God is love.

[1Jo 4:8 KJV] 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

[1Jo 4:16 KJV] 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

For Christians, the basis of objective morality is God, who is by nature good. The commandments of God are not good because God decreed them to be good, but because God is good.

Humans have a sense of objective morality because we've been created in the image of God. Humans reflect the nature of God, including His goodness. Since animals have not been created in the image of God, they do not possess morality.

viewtopic.php?p=1137116#p1137116

Objective morality would have to apply to all people at all times at all locations. Since God is the creator of all and above time and he is the source of morality and goodness, then the morality instilled in us as image bearers of God would make it objective.

This would even be true before any religious texts have been written (like the Torah). People would have an objective sense of morality before any followers wrote any books.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #3492

Objective morality would have to apply to all people at all times at all locations. Since God is the creator of all and above time and he is the source of morality and goodness, then the morality instilled in us as image bearers of God would make it objective.

This would even be true before any religious texts have been written (like the Torah). People would have an objective sense of morality before any followers wrote any books.

The objective sense of morality instilled in me tells me that drowning innocent infants and toddlers, even if a god does it, is an unjust atrocity.

[otseng]

A god who punished the innocent along with the guilty would be unjust. A god who couldn't figure out a way not to punish the guilty without punishing the innocent would be incompetent.

This is the skeptic's omnipotence argument again. As I've argued, if nobody has proposed a way to save them, then what are the options? You can't just say God is supposed to be all-powerful so there must be some way, even if we can't think of a way.

And who's to say everyone is "innocent"? In both the flood account and the conquest of Canaan, they were arguably at the peak of their sinfulness. As for the babies, I've argued labeling them as innocent is a categorical error. Also, in both cases, there was sufficient time for them to change their ways, but they did not.

[otseng]

The objective sense of morality instilled in me tells me that drowning innocent infants and toddlers, even if a god does it, is an unjust atrocity.

You have yet to justify why your morality should be considered objective.

[otseng]

Is the God of the Old Testament xenophobic? Dawkins thinks so.

"The ethnic cleansing begun in the time of Moses is brought to bloody fruition in the book of Joshua, a text remarkable for the bloodthirsty massacres it records and the xenophobic relish with which it does so."
Richard Dawkins

What is xenophobia?

"fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/xenophobia

"an aversion or hostility to, disdain for, or fear of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers"
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/xenophobia

What exactly does Yahweh command on how to treat strangers and foreigners?

Not to oppress them.

[Exo 23:9 KJV] 9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

[Deu 24:14 KJV] 14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant [that is] poor and needy, [whether he be] of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that [are] in thy land within thy gates:

[Jer 7:6 NIV] 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,

[Zec 7:10 KJV] 10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Not pervert justice.

[Deu 24:17 KJV] 17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, [nor] of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:

[Deu 27:19 KJV] 19 Cursed [be] he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Have the same law for strangers as for the Jews that reside among them.

[Exo 12:49 KJV] 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Include in the feasts.

[Deu 16:14 KJV] 14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.

Feed them from the excess in the fields.

[Lev 23:22 KJV] 22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

Feed them from the tithes.

[Deu 14:28-29 KJV] 28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay [it] up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Support them.

[Lev 25:35 NIV] 35 " 'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.

Love them.

[Lev 19:34 KJV] 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

[Deu 10:19 KJV] 19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

What does God do for the strangers?

God preserves the strangers.

[Psa 146:9 KJV] 9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

God loves strangers.

[Deu 10:18 KJV] 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

God will judge those who deprive justice to foreigners.

[Mal 3:5 NIV] 5 "So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.

Instead of God being xenophobic, in actuality, God can be considered to be xenophilic.

[Masterblaster]

Apologies
Duplicate Post

[Masterblaster]

Hello

'That holy, ineffable name, known as the Tetragrammaton (that is, made up of four consonants) is one of the keys to understanding Judaism.'

This faith will not even assign a name to God, never mind defend its actions. That would be my instinct as well. The Old Testament is their story within God, and they were not alone apparently
In otseng's delivery ,I noticed this

Love them.

[Lev 19:34 KJV] 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

I think Jesus agrees!

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #3494

This is the skeptic's omnipotence argument again. As I've argued, if nobody has proposed a way to save them, then what are the options? You can't just say God is supposed to be all-powerful so there must be some way, even if we can't think of a way.

A god who can talk to an individual like Noah can talk to any number of individuals. Is anything said to anyone outside of Noah's family? Maybe, "I'm about to destroy the entire world because of your evil, so get yourselves right and save your children"? A one-off delivered in private to a single person seems a pretty sparse warning from a deity who cares so much about his reputation and is capable of far more than that.

As for the babies, I've argued labeling them as innocent is a categorical error.

How convenient. Babies are born without the moral ability to choose innocence, and as soon as they acquire that ability they're automatically sinful and thus guilty. So it seems that there's never a wrong time to slaughter a child, at least when you're a god of perfect justice.

I ask you again: How many other gods would you cut that much slack? (And don't duck out with the excuse that it's not about other gods. If it's about any god, it's about every god.


The objective sense of morality instilled in me tells me that drowning innocent infants and toddlers, even if a god does it, is an unjust atrocity.

You have yet to justify why your morality should be considered objective.

I argue that wiping out the innocent is reprehensible no matter which deity supposedly commands it or carries it out. You argue that one specific deity should get special treatment. I'd say that my concept of morality weighs more objectively on that scale.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
What was the massacre of the Amalekites like? It was like this.

"More than 90 Palestinians, including dozens from an extended family, have been killed in Israeli air strikes on two homes in the Gaza Strip, rescuers and hospital officials have said.
The strikes flattened two homes on Friday, one in Gaza City and the other in the urban refugee camp of Nuseirat in the centre of the territory.
The Gaza City strike killed 76 people from the al-Mughrabi family, making it one of the deadliest of the war, said Mahmoud Bassal, a spokesman for Gaza’s Civil Defence department. He gave the names of 16 heads of households within the family, and said the dead included women and children.
Among those killed were Issam al-Mughrabi, a veteran employee of the UN Development Programme, his wife and their five children".

It was horrible. It was real and it still happens!
The Bibles of today are our Newspapers. The Bible is a fantastic resource for the consideration of our human story. It's truth is still in front of us ,every day.