How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Slave and Master in Ancient Near Eastern Law

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Post by otseng »

Selections from "Slave and Master in Ancient Near Eastern Law" by Raymond Westbrook
https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi ... ticle=3004

Area of the ANE under study:
The geographic area bounded by this study is the Fertile Crescent of the ancient Near East, from Mesopotamia in the East, through Anatolia in the North, to Syria-Palestine in the West, but, for the most part, excluding Egypt. The time period covered extends from approximately the twenty-fifth century B.C., when the earliest legal documents concerning slavery were found, to the fourth century B.C., when, with its conquest by Alexander, the area became part of the larger Hellenistic world.
Who are considered slaves?
In the strongly hierarchical societies of the region, the term 'slave' was used to refer not only to a person owned in law by another but to any subordinate in the social ladder. Thus, the subjects of a king were called his 'slaves' even though they were free citizens. The king himself, if a vassal, was the 'slave' of his emperor, and kings, emperors, and commoners alike were 'slaves' of the gods. A social inferior, when addressing a social superior, referred to himself out of politeness as 'your slave.'

Family relationship:
The authority of a head of household over other members of the family gave him powers that were, in some cases, analogous to those of a property owner. He could sell his children into slavery or hire out their labor, or he could hand over his wife or children by way of pledge to secure a debt.

Any children given as pledge could presumably then be sold.
Debtors:
Debtors could give themselves or persons under their authority to creditors by way of pledge. The resulting conditions were analogous to those of slavery: the pledge lost his personal freedom and was required to serve the pledgee, who exploited the pledge's labor. Nonetheless, the relationship between debtor and creditor remained one of contract, not property. Since the pledgee did not own the pledge, he could not alienate him, nor did the pledge's property automatically vest in the pledgee. It was in the nature of a pledge that it could be redeemed by payment of the debt, at which point the pledge would go free.

The result could be a form of service that lasted for many years, even for life.
Categories of slavery:
The status of slavery itself was not monothilic. The legal regime applied might differ in some aspects as between categories of slaves and even as between individual slaves. Three principal factors were responsible:
- social justice
- contract
- citizenship/ethnicity
Foreigners:
Foreigners in the ancient Near East were in a precarious situation. They had no legal rights outside of their own country or ethnic group unless they fell under the local rulers' protection. Even their lives were not safe.

Involuntary enslavement was therefore a distinct possibility.

As a Babylonian proverb remarks: "A resident alien in another city is a
slave."

Inevitably, foreign slaves were heavily represented in the category of chattel-slaves.
War:
Foreigners captured in war were booty, which could be dealt with as the captor saw fit. They could be held for ransom, exploited as labor, or resettled.

They were not automatically slaves, but they were without rights and therefore potential slaves. Indeed, they were without the legal complications of domestically created slaves, since their enslavement was in the nature of acquisition of ownerless property.
House-born:
In Old Babylonian slave-sales it was occasionally noted that a slave is "house-born" (wilid bitim). In one such document, the slave-girl was said to have been 'born on the roof.' Such slaves could have been the offspring of a union of master and slave, as attested in the law codes (CL 25, CH 171) or of slaves.
Redemption:
The seller was, under certain conditions, allowed to buy back, to 'redeem', that property at the original price, as if it had merely been pledged. This equitable principle applied only to certain types of property, in particular family land, but also to members of one's family sold as slaves.

Thus, a slave who reverted to the authority of the head of household, for example a son redeemed by his father, would thereby be freed but once more be subordinate to his father.
Slave-mark:
Since wearing earrings through pierced ears was widespread in the ancient Near East, piercing a slave's ear was presumably for the purpose of inserting an ownership tag of some sort. The purpose of the exercise, as we learn from the only other source where piercing is mentioned, was to mark him as a chattel-slave.
Punishment:
Like the Assyrian law, it implies that a master did not have a general right to disfigure his slave.

For the same offense, however, some of the contracts in the Tehip-tilla archive from Nuzi applied a remarkably severe penalty:
If A. breaks the contract and leaves B.'s house and declares thus: "I am not a slave-woman and my sons are not slaves," B. shall put out the eyes of A. and her children and sell them.
The purpose of blinding was so that they could be sold as chattel- slaves, not famine-slaves who would be subject to redemption.
Fugitives:
A slave who fled in the other direction, to a foreign county, could not be sure of the welcome he would receive. His hope for free status rested on being granted the status of resident alien, a privilege entirely at the discretion of the local ruler.
Conclusion:
The legal systems of the ancient Near East recognized persons as a category of property that might be owned by private individuals. It was pursuant to the normal rights of ownership that a master could exploit the slave's labor, restrict his freedom, and alienate him. Nonetheless, the relationship between master and slave was subject to legal restrictions based on the humanity of the slave and concerns of social justice. In spite of the impression given by certain law codes, those restrictions were not imposed in a systematic manner, but derived mainly from the equitable discretion of the courts, in particular the king (or his officials), who, as the font of justice, had the power (and the divine mandate) to intervene in order to alleviate injustice, even where it arose from arrangements that were within the letter of the law. As a result, the "rights" of slaves were uneven in quality, varying from system to system and from period to period, and even as be- tween individual cases within the same society. The basic principles, however, were the same in all the societies in question.

In determining who should benefit from measures of social justice, the legal systems drew two main distinctions: between debt-slave and chattel-slaves, and between native and foreign slaves. The authorities intervened first and foremost to protect citizens who had fallen on hard times and had been forced into slavery by debt. The tendency was to assimilate them for these purposes into the class of pledges, persons whose labor might be exploited under a contractual arrangement but who remained personally free in terms of status. At the other end of the scale, foreigners who had been acquired by capture or by purchase abroad received very little succor from the local legal system.

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Re: Morality and Evolutionary Biology

Post #3642

Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:44 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:50 am The point is, we will never know if OMVs exist so there is really no important discussion surrounding them, but if they are to be discussed, it must be acknowledged that OMVs can exist without a God. Whether via Evolution or not. (Evolution is a Red Herring).
What are you claiming? Objective moral values do or do not exist? If you claim agnosticism, then you cannot claim to have any objective moral values.

As for evolution, it might be a red herring for you, but for atheists that believe objective morality exists, it's pretty much the only possible explanation they have.
Evolution isn't the only extenal pressure that may determine if Objective Morals exist, sans God. I think it's incumbent on Theists to acknowledge that if their God can somehow exist fully formed with morals in place, then so too could a universe or the non-theistic cause of the universe.
If there's something else besides evolution, the burden is on the atheist to provide what that is.

As for the universe coming prepackaged with morality built into it, I have not seen anyone propose this. Can you point to any philosopher that posits this?

Further, if you do propose this, it refutes naturalism and supports teleology.
It wouldn't be the first time Theists are contradictory, but one has to accept this.
Actually, I see your proposal of the universe having morality embedded in it as contradictory.
Or, perhaps Moral values are simply tied to Reason - in which case, there are objective Ought's tied directly to a complete rational argument, given all the information. (The fact that we don't have all the information is irrelevant).
Are you saying morality is simply a function of rationality? I think they are two separate things. We see this in philosophy where ethics is a separate branch from epistemology. Also we see a separation between the two in psychopaths. It is possible for a psychopath to be completely rational. Further, morality is impossible to reduce to a set of axioms and it is more of an intuitive knowledge.
I am saying that we don't know if OMVs exist, but if they do, just like other objective things can exist in an atheistic universe, so too can OMVs.

I don't have to answer your question for how they happened, any more than you have to answer how God happened to have them.
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A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
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Re: Omniperfect

Post #3643

Post by alexxcJRO »

otseng wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:58 am Who's the one trolling? Even the quotes you have from above only say "perfect" and does not have "omniperfect".
If the being is perfect in every sense then the being is omniperfect. Perfect benevolence. Perfect justice. Perfect ways. Perfect works. Perfectly righteous. Perfect knowledge. Perfectly good. Perfectly powerful. Omnipresent(Psalms 139:7-8)
If the being is imperfect in the sense that it does malevolent and evil things then its not perfectly good-omnibenevolent. Ergo not perfect in the aspect of goodness and benevolence. Ergo not omniperfect.
If the being is imperfect in the sense it does not love all humans then its not perfectly good-omnibenevolent. Ergo not perfect in the aspect of goodness and benevolence. Ergo not omniperfect.
If the being is imperfect in the sense that it is "just" only in some of time and "unjust" in some other time. Ergo not perfect in the aspect of justice. Ergo not omniperfect.
If the being is imperfect in the sense that it is not omniscient, it does not know certain things. Ergo not perfect in the aspect of knowledge. Ergo not omniperfect.
otseng wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:58 am
If God is not omniperfect, then it supports my position that God is not omniperfect, not your position that God is omniperfect.
Sir you asked me a question. I answered. What is the difference between omniperfect and almost omniperfect.
otseng wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:58 am
I can sort of agree God could do anything that is logically possible. But the problem is this is more of a philosophical argument than a Biblical argument.

The modern Christian logic is the below verses are saying God is doing anything-"all things" that are logically possible. The verses prompted ideas of omnipotence.

"But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"(Matthew 19:26 )
"For nothing will be impossible with God.”(Luke 1:37 )
"I can do all things through him who strengthens me."(Philippians 4:13 )
"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”"(Mark 10:27 )
otseng wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:58 am
I didn't state you are using the ontological argument. I said you are using what is conceivable as an argument, which is what the ontological argument also uses. You stated, "There is not a being that can be conceived that is more perfect." My point is if you are going to use this line of argumentation, then I'll use the ontological argument to prove God exists.

Q: But how can you use this argument when you believe in another kind of being(-which is not omniperfect or maximally great )?

Anselm defines God into existence using Maximally Great Being logic: having all perfections.
I can define God into non-existence using Maximally Great Being logic: having all perfections.
You don't want to go that way. It's a dead end too.
I am using the Bible which posits omniperfect being which happens to be MGB.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: Morality and Evolutionary Biology

Post #3644

Post by otseng »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:02 pm I am saying that we don't know if OMVs exist, but if they do, just like other objective things can exist in an atheistic universe, so too can OMVs.
And I would say this is just a blind faith assertion. You don't even know if objective moral values exist, yet you do know how it originated.
I don't have to answer your question for how they happened, any more than you have to answer how God happened to have them.
I've already presented my justification for objective morality. And what we see is in an atheistic worldview is there is complete lack of explanatory power in this area.

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Re: Omniperfect

Post #3645

Post by otseng »

alexxcJRO wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:54 amErgo not omniperfect.
As I've said, I agree God is not omniperfect.
The modern Christian logic is the below verses are saying God is doing anything-"all things" that are logically possible. The verses prompted ideas of omnipotence.
What we've seen is you have to qualify the words omniperfect and omnipotent with words like "almost" and "maximally". Like my argument that the Bible is not inerrant, when you have to add qualifications and exceptions, it makes the terms meaningless. People can just more ad hoc qualifications to terms and then there is no objective meaning to the terms, but just varying subjective ideas of the words mean.
I am using the Bible which posits omniperfect being which happens to be MGB.
You assert the Bible says it, but as you've demonstrated, there is nowhere the Bible says "omniperfect".

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Desire for perfection

Post #3646

Post by otseng »

A trait that people have is we have this expectation and desire that things needs to be "perfect". It's almost like another intuitive aspect of us, similar to having an innate sense of objective morality. And when things are not "perfect", we have an uneasiness about it.

We see this with Christian's view of the Bible where it must be perfect, so therefore it must be inerrant. As I've argued, though I believe the Bible is authoritative and true, we should abandon an inerrant view of the Bible.

We see this in Christian arguments (and even skeptic arguments) for God, where it's claimed God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omniperfect, etc.

We see this is in views of the universe. The Greeks believed the heavenly ream must be "perfect". And the perfect shape was circular. So, all things in the heavens must exist and move in a circular fashion.
The ancient Greeks developed, over a period of centuries, an elaborate cosmology. By cosmology is meant the structure and the origin of the universe. The earliest views, going back to the time of Homer and Hesiod (the 8th century BC) postulated a flat or cylindrical earth located in a hemispherical cosmos that surrounded or envelopped it. But by the time of the thinkers associated with the legendary and mythical Pythagorus (560-480BC, app.), the view became widely accepted that the earth was a sphere in a universe which was itself also fully spherical. This claim was based both on theoretical grounds -- (i) the belief that the circle or sphere was the most perfect of geometric shapes, and therefore appropriate for the earth and the cosmos, which were the most important of objects,
https://bertie.ccsu.edu/naturesci/Cosmo ... round.html
Aristotle also asserts that the world did not come into being at one point, but that it has existed, unchanged, for all eternity (it had to be that way since it was perfect.
Still, since he believed that the sphere was the most perfect of the geometrical shapes, the universe did have a center (the Earth) and its material part had an edge, which was ``gradual'' starting in the lunar and ending in the fixed star sphere.
http://homework.uoregon.edu/pub/emj/121 ... totle.html

Not only did the Greeks hold to this assumption, but many others as well. So this was a major reason it took a long time for the Ptolemaic view of the universe to be replaced.
The “natural” expectation for ancient societies was that the heavenly bodies (Sun, Moon, planets, and stars) must travel in uniform motion along the most “perfect” path possible, a circle. However, the paths of the Sun, Moon, and planets as observed from Earth are not circular. Ptolemy’s model explained this “imperfection” by postulating that the apparently irregular movements were a combination of several regular circular motions seen in perspective from a stationary Earth.
https://www.britannica.com/science/Ptolemaic-system

Advertisements, entertainment, and social media appeal to this perfection drive in us. We must have perfect looks, so people spent money and time to try to look perfect. We must have perfect lives, so we post how we are happy and successful on social media.

An interesting thing about the Bible is it runs counter to the idea of perfection, but it shows us we are not perfect. Certainly the people in the Bible were not perfect. Major figures in the Bible had flaws, from Adam to Abraham to Moses to David to Solomon to Peter to Paul.

Like objective morality, I think this innate sense and desire for perfection is a result of us being created in the image of God. Only God is perfect and we have this remnant of his nature in us. We have this desire for it, but it cannot be satisfied by anything in this world. There is no perfect wife or husband. There are no perfect kids. There is no perfect bank account. There is no perfect job. There is no perfect church. There is no perfect life.

There is only one thing perfect - God himself.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3647

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello otseng

You say - "Like objective morality, I think this innate sense and desire for perfection is a result of us being created in the image of God. Only God is perfect and we have this remnant of his nature in us. We have this desire for it, but.....

There is only one thing perfect - God"

-----
How is God perfect?
Objective morality is nothing like, what you imagine it to be
I am sorry but I do not agree with a single sentence of your submission.
I hope that I do not get into trouble for disagreeing with you.
What question do you have for a dissenting voice?
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3648

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello otseng

You say - "An interesting thing about the Bible is it runs counter to the idea of perfection, but it shows us we are not perfect. Certainly the people in the Bible were not perfect. Major figures in the Bible had flaws, from Adam to Abraham to Moses to David to Solomon to Peter to Paul."

---
Can anyone, in any way take this piece as a serious reference to the thread opening post.
Couldn't I say the same about 'The Canterbury Tales' and a myriad of such literary ramblings?
Is there a point here. I can"t see it.
Last edited by Masterblaster on Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Morality and Evolutionary Biology

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Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:37 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:02 pm I am saying that we don't know if OMVs exist, but if they do, just like other objective things can exist in an atheistic universe, so too can OMVs.
And I would say this is just a blind faith assertion. You don't even know if objective moral values exist, yet you do know how it originated.
I don't have to answer your question for how they happened, any more than you have to answer how God happened to have them.
I've already presented my justification for objective morality. And what we see is in an atheistic worldview is there is complete lack of explanatory power in this area.
No, you nor I know if they exist. If they do, and the Universe is atheistic, then they exist atheistically - wouldn't you agree?

(BTW, your comment is rather uncivil: why would you think I'd claim to know how OMVs exist when I say I don't know if they exist? It appears you were lacking philosophical charity when you wrote that.)
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Morality and Evolutionary Biology

Post #3650

Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:37 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:02 pm I am saying that we don't know if OMVs exist, but if they do, just like other objective things can exist in an atheistic universe, so too can OMVs.
And I would say this is just a blind faith assertion. You don't even know if objective moral values exist, yet you do know how it originated.
I don't have to answer your question for how they happened, any more than you have to answer how God happened to have them.
I've already presented my justification for objective morality. And what we see is in an atheistic worldview is there is complete lack of explanatory power in this area.
This is so uncharitable that I have to wonder if you aren't doing this to throw a smoke screen.

1. Your justifications for OMVs are meaningless, as reality has no obligation to agree with your opinion. Further, making something up that sounds plausible to you, like a person writing rules for a SciFi fantasy world, is NOT an "explanation."
2. The main atheistic position would be that OMVs don't exist (in general, but please see the quote and link below), and you seem to be quite happy to accept that explanation: if there is no God, there are no OMVs. This means Atheism has a very robust power to explain.
3. However, that said, atheism is not a philosophical position in that it has any obligation to explain anything. Atheism is derived after one tries to explain things. (Especially when Theists try to explain God, tell us it's unknowable, then claim they've explained things...)
4. Philosophy (not atheism) tells us that OMVs can be obtained in a godless universe. To wit:
Now of course moral realists can consistently acknowledge this and then argue against naturalism—perhaps, at least in part, on the grounds that naturalism is incompatible with acknowledging moral facts. This was, in fact, Moore’s position. Yet one then has the burden of explaining how moral facts are related to natural facts and the burden of explaining how we might manage to learn of these non-natural facts. A good deal of the work that has been done defending moral realism is devoted either to meeting these burdens or to showing that they do not pose a special problem just for morality. Moral realists of this sort allow that moral facts are not natural facts, and moral knowledge is not simply of a piece with scientific knowledge, even as they defend the idea that there are moral facts and (at least in principle) moral knowledge. They thus reject the idea that science is the measure and test of all things (Shafer-Landau 2003, Parfit 2011, Scanlon 2014).

Impressed by the plausibility of naturalism, though, many moral realists have tried, in one way or another, to show that the moral facts they are committed to are either themselves natural facts or are at least appropriately compatible with such facts (Boyd 1988, Brink 1989, Railton 1986). If they are right, then naturalism poses no special threat to moral realism.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-realism/

(Note that "Moral Realists" do NOT equal "Theists," though Theists may be a subset of Moral Realists. Theists can also be Moral Noncognitivists, et al.)

So, instead of complaining that atheism has no explanatory power because some Schmo (me) on an internet forum won't give you an account of OMVs under naturalism, perhaps you should read the philosophers who argue it? (Remember, my position is OMVs don't exist - but I am honest enough to recognize the full debate surrounding morals. I'm not trying to tell you what the truth is - that's what religion is for. )

Aren't you Apologists exhausted by having to ignore so much rich knowledge, data, and conversation in the service of your belief?


edit: I've said it before, and will continue to say until it isn't true: Theists don't understand morality.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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