The Kingdom of Heaven

[Elijah John]

Does (or will) the Kingdom of Heaven transcend the walls (metaphorical) of the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Will those outside of the Watch Tower organization be part of the Kingdom? Will they inherit "eternal life in Paradise on Earth"?

Why or why not?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by onewithhim]

What church if you don't mind me asking? These views aren't too mainstream so I think that we might have gone to the same church....

You said you believe in the Trinity. That's enough for me to know that you believe the same basic doctrines that the church-of-my-youth taught. I was christened as a baby into the Methodist Church, and when a teenager got baptized into the Southern Baptist organization.

[onewithhim]

Can't help thinking that your ill-will does you, and your church, no credit. Or is the lack of any sense of humour a necessary attribute for a Jehovah's Witness?

Moderator Comment

Snide comments and digs at other person's personality are considered uncivil on this site. Please refrain from such comments and remain on topic.

Please review the Rules.

So, it's OK to call my posts 'garbled, nonsensical writing', but not OK for me to respond robustly? I told a simple story, with a simple moral, pertinent to the thread title, which was neither garbled nor nonsense. And I resent it being portrayed that way. But, I consider myself duly admonished, and will try to do better in future, though I think JW could do a lot better, also.

Best wishes, 2RM.

You accused JW of being sneaky and misconstruing your story on purpose. Why don't you explain the "moral to the story," if there is one.

Nowhere did I accuse anyone of being 'sneaky'. I accused JW of being deliberately obtuse, but that is a perfectly valid debating tactic, although one which, like much of rhetoric, becomes less effective when identified and challenged.

As for the moral of the story, it would be far more more telling if you and JW realised it for yourselves. It's a bit like the punch-line of a joke - if someone needs to explain it to you, it loses much of it's impact. So I am loath to explain it, unless you absolutely insist. Much better for you to ponder for yourselves who is really in Heaven, Steve, or the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Best wishes, 2RM.

OK. Yes, I insist.

Anyone in heaven would have to be a witness of the Most High God, whose name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18, KJV), and which name appears 7,000 times in the Bible as The Tetragrammaton (YHWH). Jesus himself was said to be "the faithful and true witness" of his Father (Revelation 3:14) . So the rejection of "Jehovah's Witnesses" completely eludes me as to the reason for that rejection. From Scripture it is as clear as day the those who are God's witnesses, as Jesus was, would be the only ones going to heaven. Is this too complicated for you?

Please explain your "punch-line."

[2ndRateMind]

As for the moral of the story, it would be far more more telling if you and JW realised it for yourselves. It's a bit like the punch-line of a joke - if someone needs to explain it to you, it loses much of it's impact. So I am loath to explain it, unless you absolutely insist. Much better for you to ponder for yourselves who is really in Heaven, Steve, or the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Best wishes, 2RM.

OK. Yes, I insist.

Anyone in heaven would have to be a witness of the Most High God, whose name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18, KJV), and which name appears 7,000 times in the Bible as The Tetragrammaton (YHWH). Jesus himself was said to be "the faithful and true witness" of his Father (Revelation 3:14) . So the rejection of "Jehovah's Witnesses" completely eludes me as to the reason for that rejection. From Scripture it is as clear as day the those who are God's witnesses, as Jesus was, would be the only ones going to heaven. Is this too complicated for you?

Please explain your "punch-line."

Oh dear. If I must, but if I do, I insist you answer my question in return.

The moral of the story is that everyone deserving gets to go to heaven, even Steve, who may have any religion, or none. And that we get the heaven we deserve. And Jehovah's Witnesses (who, in my experience, are as good as anyone else, if a trifle on the earnest side) will get that heaven too. It's just that they limit the scope of their heaven by insisting they (or only 144,000 of them, I am unclear which) will be the only ones saved. Presumably then, God will humour them, and ensure they are not disillusioned. One way to do this would be by putting them in some heavenly Kingdom Hall without doors or windows. Steve, on the other hand, who makes no such stipulation about qualifications for salvation, and has not limited his afterlife prospects in that way, gets to enjoy the fullness of Heaven in the entirety God wants for all His children, of any religion, or none, while the Jehovah's Witnesses get to witness of Heaven only what they want and expect to witness.

Now, my question is, why does it matter what we call God? Jesus called Him 'Abba', father. Others call Him Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, JHWH, Elohim, Adonai, God of Gods, Lords of Lords, Lord of Hosts. And others still, myself included, prefer the simple, general, incontrovertible combination of name and conceptual description: 'God'. Do you really think He will deny someone heaven on grounds that, despite their love for Him, and His for them, they call Him some certain particular name when He prefers some other, different name?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses [...] limit the scope of their heaven by insisting ... only 144,000 will be [there] .

Jehovah's Witnesses based the understanding that only 144,000 individuals from the earth will be resurrected to heavenly life on Revelation Chapter 14:1. We understand this number to be literal. You may disagree with this interpretation, but we didn't just pluck the number out of thin air, it is a number in the BIBLE.

If you are under the impression that we believe that ONLY those that belong to our organizaiton will be in heaven you have been misinformed. Indeed our modern day organization has only existed for about 100 years and we believe throughout the ages God (Jehovah) has been choosing all spirit anointed Christians for this position. Jehovah alone decides who those ones are.

For more details see my earlier posts on this topic below.



JW


RELATED POSTS

Do all good people go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p878615

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe only 144,000 individuals will go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 94#p846594

WHY does God call some to heavenly life from the earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846997

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... THE MILLENIUM

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses [believe]... only 144,000 will be ... saved.

If you are under the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses believe only JWs will be "saved" or be in "paradise" you have also been misinformed; this is not one of our beliefs. Jehovah's Witnesses believe many millions (maybe eventually billions) of people, many of whom may never have previously heard of Jehovah will be given the opportunity of living forever in paradise.

We believe Jehovah will judge each (whether a member of our religion or not) individually; he will only destroy at the coming final judgment of Armageddon, the incorrigibly wicked, the rest will be allowed into paradise to learn about the True God.

For more details please see my earlier posts on this topic (see below)


RELATED POSTS

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe ONLY JWs can be "saved"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 220#865220



(Thank you Onewithhim for insisting on clarity, it has given me the opportunity on rectifying what is evidently some misconceptions on the part of 2ndRateMind.)

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness]

Thank you for that clarification.

Best wishes, 2RM.

PS. In response to your edit, the substantial point remains; whether you limit salvation to 144000 Jehovah's Witnesses's or 144000 miscellaneous believers or just 144000 good people. And amongst these options lies considerable scope for theological debate. What is your contention, specifically?

Best 2RM.

PPS. OK, don't answer this now, I'm happy to wait until you have finished editing your replies, and maybe my question will lose its relevance.

Best again, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe many millions (maybe eventually billions) of people, many of whom may never have previously heard of Jehovah will be given the opportunity of living forever in paradise.

Jehovah's Witnesses based the understanding that only 144,000 individuals from the earth will be resurrected to heavenly life on Revelation Chapter 14:1. We understand this number to be literal.

I am not sure how you would reconcile these two statements. Do not rush to answer; it does not greatly matter to me. It just seems to be an inconsistency that ought to matter to you.

For ease of reference:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelations 14:1-5 KJV

Just as an interesting aside, do you also literally believe that only literally virgin males with the name of God literally written on their foreheads, presumably tattooed for permanence sake, are eligible for heaven?

And that women are automatically exempt from that happy state?

I don't greatly approve of tattoos, and I am not at all sure heaven would be heaven without the gentle and fair sex.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[JehovahsWitness]

Revelations 14:1-5 KJV

Just as an interesting aside, do you also literally believe that only literally virgin males with the name of God literally written on their foreheads, presumably tattooed for permanence sake, are eligible for heaven?

And that women are automatically exempt from that happy state?

I don't greatly approve of tattoos, and I am not at all sure heaven would be heaven without the gentle and fair sex.

Best wishes, 2RM.

No we take the number to be literal, not the other features.

salvation to 144000 Jehovah's Witnesses's or 144000 miscellaneous believers or just 144000 good people.

I would say 144,000 people chosen by God. The bible says they must be born again (Christians). The rest is up to the Almighty, we trust he will chose those he sees as "good" in his eyes; have nothing to add.




How can millions be "saved" if only 144,000 individuals go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846597

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... THE MILLENIUM

[2ndRateMind]

No we take the number to be literal, not the other features.

Why is that?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe many millions (maybe eventually billions) of people, many of whom may never have previously heard of Jehovah will be given the opportunity of living forever in paradise.

Jehovah's Witnesses based the understanding that only 144,000 individuals from the earth will be resurrected to heavenly life on Revelation Chapter 14:1. We understand this number to be literal.

I am not sure how you would reconcile these two statements [...] It just seems to be an inconsistency that ought to matter to you.

How can Jehovah's Witnesses believe millions will be "saved" and live in paradise if only 144,000 go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 415#811415

What will life be like for the MILLIONS or BILLIONS of people that will live under (ie as subjects) of the kingdom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 361#812361

Rulers & Subjects
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 997#846997

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by 2timothy316
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 416#811416

by onewithhim
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 278#812278