The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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McCulloch
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #21

Post by McCulloch »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
McCulloch wrote:A government is a group that rules over a territory. A group that will rule sometime in the future is not a government. It might be called a government-in-waiting, but it isn't an effective government.
Yes, it was "in waiting" in a sense from 33 to 1914. As of that year, it has been a government in operation. The territory is the planet earth.
A government is the system to govern a state or community. Government normally consists of legislators, administrators, and arbitrators. Government is the means by which state policy is enforced, as well as the mechanism for determining the policy of the state. Governments may control the economy, social freedoms, law enforcement, school system, and political systems.

This Kingdom of God has provided no legislation since 1914 applicable to planet earth. There are no state policies coming into force that have been made by this Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God shows no sign of controlling the economy, social freedoms, law enforcement, school system, or political systems.

If the Kingdom of God has been the effective government of the entire planet earth since 1914, then it is singularly the most unobtrusive, might I say invisible, government ever. It has been totally ineffective. I certainly hope that it improves a whole lot in its second century of operation.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

McCulloch wrote:A government is the system to govern a state or community. Government normally consists of legislators, administrators, and arbitrators. Government is the means by which state policy is enforced, as well as the mechanism for determining the policy of the state. Governments may control the economy, social freedoms, law enforcement, school system, and political systems.

DOES GOD'S KINGDOM REALLY MEET THE CRITERIA OF A GOVERNMENT?

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A government is the system to govern a state or community. God's kindom has a definite structure and system designed to govern. Most States have a President, or a King (or Queen) that acts as the Commander in Chief or the head of any ruling administration. The United States, for example has Donald Trump, the kingdom Government has as "President" JESUS CHRIST

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Government normally consists of legislators, administrators, and arbitrators. Few if any rulers or Presidents or Kings exercise their authority alone. Even absolute Monarchs have subordinates that exercise authority over the various aspects of government.
Taking the British Government for example, their are 750 members of the House of Lords + 650 Members of Parliament (of those 21 special members are chosen to head the various departments (Cabinet). So effectively the British government is made up of 1400 individuals with a central team of 21.
The Kingdom Government is much larger, as it will rule over a much larger territory than the British Isles, it is comprised of 144,000 individuals with a central team of 12 "cabinet members". These act as "legislators, administrators, and arbitrators" in God's government (The Kingdom)

Legislation The current legislation can be read in its entirity in the Christian bible. Similar to The Constitution of the United states, these laws and principles have existed since the King elect Jesus Christ declared them; so they have existed as a "constitution" for potential citizens long before the incoming government actually took power in 1914. The application of those principles however has been ongoing affair. There is indication that there will be new legislation adapted to the new circumstances after the Kingdom takes control of the planet.

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The above Government is the means by which state policy is enforced, as well as the mechanism for determining the policy of the state. It will control the economy, social freedoms, law enforcement and educational system. There will be no structure put in place for alternative government so "politics" as such will cease to exist.

I will add a few features of government you did not mention...

Armed forces: Most countries have an army to defend the interests of its citizens.

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A seat of Government: All governments have a (usually) fixed location were the ministers and their head convene to discuss the application of policy. For the United States this would be in Washington, for France this would be in Paris, for the British government this is in London. For God's government this is in heaven.

Government Agents: Most goverments have a number of government agencies through which they can be informed and helped as to policies and individual rights. While the bible indicates that there will indeed be individuals appointed as earthly representatives (not rulers) of the kingdom, presently there is an "elder" arrangment, wherein responsible members of the Christian community of citizens are appointed by a central governing body.

As has already been explained the Kingdom government is to rule over the entire territory of the earth, Jehovah's Witnesses make up its citzens.

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Citizens: God's government currently has over 8 million subjects that swear exclusive allegence to no other State or ruler but God's (Eight million citizens is more than several nations on earth). They consider themselves respectful but "alien residents" in whatever country they find themselves.


CONCLUSION: The Kingdom government meets all the criteria of a real government with stucture, legistlation and representatives. Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves citizens of this government, they already benefit from its educational program and enjoy strong bond with fellow subjects. The await with impatience the full application of kingdom powers.
quoted source (boxes): https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014241


Government Promises
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RELATED POSTS

Who are the 144,000 To rule over?
viewtopic.php?p=1055054#p1055054

Are we to understand the Kingdom to be a LITERAL government that will rule over this literal planet earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 30#p865630

What will those ruling in this government (The Kingdom) actually DO in the future?
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:16 am, edited 6 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 21 by McCulloch]

QUESTION: If God's kingdom has been in power since 1914 why have there been no significant changes on earth?

Because the bible indicates that there would be a delay between the installation or setting up of the government and the change of power. (compare Psalms 110:1). This does not mean Jesus has been inactive since 1914, indeed the scripures speak of some key event that have occurred since 1914, in heaven, invisible to humans but that have effected mankind profoundly
- The celestial war resulting in Satan and his demons being permanetly ousted from heaven - Rev 12:10-12

- The selecting training and appointing of the last of the members of the government (Rev 14:1,3)

- The selecting, training, organizing and education of the citizens of the kingdom (Rev 7:9; Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 2:4)

- The organisation of a global government campaign puting all humans on notice of the coming change in world order (Mat 24:14)
Without these and other changes prior to the taking of kingdom power the post change era would be chaotic and largely ineffective.

Since Jesus would take up kingdom power prior to his destroying all human government and taking control of the planet, and that this event would be outside the vision of humans on earth, Jesus provided his followers with signs by which they could understand that he was indeed installed as king and that the coming change of power was imminent. This composit sign can be read in the bible in Matthew Chapter 24, Luke Chapter 21 and Mark 13.


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Further reading: Are we living the last days?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
No messianic kingdom no.


Please explain what exactly you mean by the term "messianic kingdom".
A kingdom is any kind of rulership or the exercise of authority; the "messianic" kingdom is simply the kingdom that belongs to Jesus the Messiah (Jesus). It was this kingdom Jesus taught his followers to pray for (Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth"). It will be in operation for 1000 years.


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #25

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 23 by JehovahsWitness]

Replying to post 21 by McCulloch]
QUESTION: If God's kingdom has been in power since 1914 why have there been no significant changes on earth?

The bible indicates that there would be a delay between the installation or setting up of the government and the change of power. (compare Psalms 110:1). This does not mean it has been inactive, indeed the scripures speak of some significant changes that occurred in heaven, invisible to humans but that have effected mankind profoundly (see Rev 12:10-12). That said the bible specifically states that there is "an appointed time of the nations" meaning a specific period when human government would be permitted to dominate the world scene and only when this period (long forordained by the Creator - see Acts 1:6, 7) would their authority be completely removed.

Since Jesus would take up kingdom power prior to his destroying all human government and taking control of the planet, he provided his followers with signs by which they would understand that he was indeed installed as king and that the coming change of power was imminent. This composit sign can be read in the bible in Matthew Chapter 24, Luke Chapter 21 and Mark 13.
As understood and interpreted by every JW, and by no one else, yes.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #26

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 8 by onewithhim]
God said to the Messiah long before he began his rule, "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34,35) That part of Jesus' rule would be "in the midst of his enemies" was brought out in that same psalm, verse 2. That meant that for a time, Jesus would still have his enemies being active on the earth. What he would be doing at that particular time would be guiding his followers on the earth concerning the preaching work--witnessing to all the nations---that had to be done before the end of men's rule. (Matthew 24:14)
Psalm 110 tells the truth about Christ and how he has been ruling in the midst of his enemies from day one, and will continue to do that until his return.

He has had many enemies, but in a parable names one in particular.

That parable of the kingdom is featured and explained in Matthew 13:24-30;36-43.

Do you have ears to hear it and its explanation?
Yes, I do, and I have heard its explanation. You seem satisfied with what you have heard elsewhere, so all I say now is...blessings to you and may you have peace. Farewell.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #27

Post by onewithhim »

Justin108 wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

In my experience, few can actually define what God's kingdom is, most launch into a rather vague discourse about it being something about heaven and in ones heart. I will leave the thread to demonstrate how few people (especially nominal Christians) can actually say what God's kingdom is.
God's kingdom refers to his heavenly government which has been in operation since the year 1914 (compare Daniel 4:10-16; Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5 ; Revelation 12:6, 14).
How do these verses point to 1914? What exactly do you mean by "in operation"? What exactly did the kingdom start doing in 1914 that it did not do before then? Or did the kingdom not exist before then?
God said to the Messiah long before he began his rule, "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34,35) That part of Jesus' rule would be "in the midst of his enemies" was brought out in that same psalm, verse 2. That meant that for a time, Jesus would still have his enemies being active on the earth. What he would be doing at that particular time would be guiding his followers on the earth concerning the preaching work--witnessing to all the nations---that had to be done before the end of men's rule. (Matthew 24:14)
Did Jesus start doing this after 1914?
onewithhim wrote:He has been guiding his followers for over a hundred years now, to give a thorough witness to all the world.
And Jesus did not do this prior to 1914? Did Jesus not guide his followers to give witness prior to 1914?
onewithhim wrote: We can tell by the information in the 24th chapter of Matthew, plus Revelation and Daniel, that Jesus will take over rulership of the earth and destroy men's governments any time now. (See Daniel chapter 2. Research the "immense image.")
Yes... any minute now.
Yes, Jesus concentrated on guiding his people in the preaching work when he took his throne in 1914. Before that, no he wasn't doing that. The churches of Christendom are the "weeds" of his parable in Matthew 13. They were to be sorted out at the "harvest time," which we're living in now.

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #28

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 8 by onewithhim]
God said to the Messiah long before he began his rule, "Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:34,35) That part of Jesus' rule would be "in the midst of his enemies" was brought out in that same psalm, verse 2. That meant that for a time, Jesus would still have his enemies being active on the earth. What he would be doing at that particular time would be guiding his followers on the earth concerning the preaching work--witnessing to all the nations---that had to be done before the end of men's rule. (Matthew 24:14)
Psalm 110 tells the truth about Christ and how he has been ruling in the midst of his enemies from day one, and will continue to do that until his return.

He has had many enemies, but in a parable names one in particular.

That parable of the kingdom is featured and explained in Matthew 13:24-30;36-43.

Do you have ears to hear it and its explanation?
Yes, I do, and I have heard its explanation.


What exactly was that explanation?

Who gave it to you?


You seem satisfied with what you have heard elsewhere,
Please clarify what you meant by "elsewhere".
so all I say now is...blessings to you and may you have peace.
Thank you. I reciprocate.
Farewell.
With respect, no, we have "unfinished business" to attend to, surely?

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #29

Post by Justin108 »

onewithhim wrote:
Yes, Jesus concentrated on guiding his people in the preaching work when he took his throne in 1914. Before that, no he wasn't doing that.
So before 1914, Jehovah's Witnesses didn't preach? Or did they preach but were unguided by Jesus?

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Re: The kingdom of God.

Post #30

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]
A kingdom is any kind of rulership or the exercise of authority
An authority and rulership that has been exercised by Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years.

Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and
make disciples from all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.�

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