Is it reasonable to believe in God?

[historia]

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Note, the question here is not whether you think it is true that God exists, but simply whether such a belief is reasonable or not.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #240]

This sort of quagmire is rather distressing because it is easy to do it right. What is validated by science does have some credibility, on a sliding scale. The world was found to be an oblate spheroid, but it will not be demonstrated to be flat. The age of the universe was revised recently, but it won't turn out to be under 19 thousand years old.

So there are many hypotheses promoted, some faitbased, like gods, some cultish (like Flying saucer pilots built the pyramids) and some like the reverse -time universe. They are not in fact anything to get upset about, because Newtonian physics still works,even if the universe is Holographic, and civilisation won't come crashing down if Bigfoot is shown to be real. Until then,we reserve belief.

So it doesn't fluster us in the least to have people trying to ...I don't know...make us doubt all logical processes because we can't disprove Zeus? It doesn't bother us (in refuting we are not fighting for the atheist worldview but trying to help someone whose logic is back to front) but is makes the opposing argument look rather unsound.

[JohnJubinsky]

It is not reasonable to believe in a Biblical type god because there are too many logical arguments that such a god does not exist. The following are five of them:

1.) Good beings do not freely desire to be worshiped. They desire to inspire others to be as good as and even better than they are rather than to hold them in prostration. Freely attempting to hold others in prostration is on its face proof that the attempter is not good. Accordingly, a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

2.) Freely permitting the temptation of good beings to be bad is inconsistent with good itself. As such, an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god would not do it. Obviously, however, the temptation of good beings to be bad exists throughout the world. Accordingly, an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

3.) All beings have freewill. As such, a being that is all-good would have it. Moreover, in knowing that it had freewill it would know that it had the capacity to choose to become evil. In this it would know that if it chose to become evil while being worshiped by others the worshipers would be left to follow it (evil) in blind faith. Accordingly, being all-good it would not freely hold that it should be worshiped by others. As such, a being that is all-good and freely holds that it should be worshiped by others does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being that is all-good and freely holds that it should be worshiped by others. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

4.) Some wrongs are so bad that there is no amount of compensation that could be given to the victim that would result in justice. If an innocent child is raped not even everlasting life in paradise could make up for it. Obviously, however, innocent children are raped every day on an international basis. An all-powerful and all-knowing god would be able to prevent this. Accordingly, an all-powerful, all-knowing and just god does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is all-powerful, all-knowing and just. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

5.) Demanding to be worshiped by others is tantamount to demanding that they sacrifice the most important thing that they possess - their self-honesty. That is, as Descartes and many others have pointed out, we have no way to know with absolute certainty whether our perceptions validly reflect an external reality. As such, we cannot self-honestly worship something that is supposed to be part of an external reality. More specifically, worshiping something that is supposed to be part of an external reality would require that we hold with absolute certainty that it exists in the first place but no matter what perceptions we experience it is impossible for us to self-honestly hold with absolute certainty that there is an external reality at all. As such, a being that is all-good would not freely hold that it is right for others to worship it. Accordingly, a being that is all-good and freely holds that it is right for others to worship it does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being that is all-good and freely holds that it is right for others to worship it. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

Disproofs 2.) and 4.) also establish that there cannot even be an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god that does not want to be worshiped.

[JoeyKnothead]

It is not reasonable to believe in a Biblical type god because there are too many logical arguments that such a god does not exist.

You suffer to think logic has anything to do with it.

Religious belief's an emotional response to confounding sensory input.

[Miles]

It is not reasonable to believe in a Biblical type god because there are too many logical arguments that such a god does not exist. The following are five of them:

1.) Good beings do not freely desire to be worshiped. They desire to inspire others to be as good as and even better than they are rather than to hold them in prostration. Freely attempting to hold others in prostration is on its face proof that the attempter is not good. Accordingly, a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

2.) Freely permitting the temptation of good beings to be bad is inconsistent with good itself. As such, an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god would not do it. Obviously, however, the temptation of good beings to be bad exists throughout the world. Accordingly, an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

3.) All beings have freewill. As such, a being that is all-good would have it. Moreover, in knowing that it had freewill it would know that it had the capacity to choose to become evil. In this it would know that if it chose to become evil while being worshiped by others the worshipers would be left to follow it (evil) in blind faith. Accordingly, being all-good it would not freely hold that it should be worshiped by others. As such, a being that is all-good and freely holds that it should be worshiped by others does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being that is all-good and freely holds that it should be worshiped by others. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

4.) Some wrongs are so bad that there is no amount of compensation that could be given to the victim that would result in justice. If an innocent child is raped not even everlasting life in paradise could make up for it. Obviously, however, innocent children are raped every day on an international basis. An all-powerful and all-knowing god would be able to prevent this. Accordingly, an all-powerful, all-knowing and just god does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is all-powerful, all-knowing and just. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

5.) Demanding to be worshiped by others is tantamount to demanding that they sacrifice the most important thing that they possess - their self-honesty. That is, as Descartes and many others have pointed out, we have no way to know with absolute certainty whether our perceptions validly reflect an external reality. As such, we cannot self-honestly worship something that is supposed to be part of an external reality. More specifically, worshiping something that is supposed to be part of an external reality would require that we hold with absolute certainty that it exists in the first place but no matter what perceptions we experience it is impossible for us to self-honestly hold with absolute certainty that there is an external reality at all. As such, a being that is all-good would not freely hold that it is right for others to worship it. Accordingly, a being that is all-good and freely holds that it is right for others to worship it does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being that is all-good and freely holds that it is right for others to worship it. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

Disproofs 2.) and 4.) also establish that there cannot even be an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god that does not want to be worshiped.

Show us your evidence.

.

[William]

[Replying to JohnJubinsky in post #242]

1.) Good beings do not freely desire to be worshiped. They desire to inspire others to be as good as and even better than they are rather than to hold them in prostration. Freely attempting to hold others in prostration is on its face proof that the attempter is not good. Accordingly, a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

I think it important to establish exactly what worship actually is - - -

Is it the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity?

Also, what do you mean to "freely desire to be worshiped"?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JohnJubinsky in post #242]

1.) Good beings do not freely desire to be worshiped. They desire to inspire others to be as good as and even better than they are rather than to hold them in prostration. Freely attempting to hold others in prostration is on its face proof that the attempter is not good. Accordingly, a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good does not exist. However, by definition a Biblical type god is a being who freely desires to be worshiped and is all-good. Therefore, a Biblical type god does not exist.

I think it important to establish exactly what worship actually is - - -

Is it the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity?

Also, what do you mean to "freely desire to be worshiped"?

Didn't we already do this? Given that we use the main meaning of worship as applied to gods rather than rulers,Rock stars or top sportspersons, I recall that (through input of worshippers) God could not and did not desire to be worshipped and the worshippers were only doing it to feel good about themselves.

So to relate this to the topic (assuming we are still on it) worship is one more reason (once one has thought why worshippers need to do this self -gratification of grovelling to a god) to regard all gods and religions as man -made instinctive human behavior and even behaviour, and there is no rational reason to believe any of it.

I reckon there is a whole area of study and science to be done (if it does not already exist) as to why we do art,music and dance and also reverence for royals (or royal -type political leaders) and also religion. One thing I'm sure of, it is only a man -made construct serving human needs and is absolutely nothing to do with any Cosmic Creative Computer, in there is any such thing.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is not reasonable to believe in a Biblical type god because there are too many logical arguments that such a god does not exist. The following are five of them:

1.) Good beings do not freely desire to be worshiped.

Says who!? If worship is the fitting response to acknowledging of the reality of having received life from one's Creator; why would said Creator not desire his subjects do the right thing? Especially if they were created to be truly happy ONLY if they do the right thing!

5.) Demanding to be worshiped by others is tantamount to demanding that they sacrifice the most important thing that they possess - their self-honesty.

There is absolutely nothing dishonest about worshipping that which should be worshipped






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[JehovahsWitness]

It is not reasonable to believe in a Biblical type god because there are too many logical arguments that such a god does not exist. The following are five of them:

2.) Freely permitting the temptation of good beings to be bad is inconsistent with good itself.

No it is not. Not if there was a greater issue that such permission would settle, the settlement of which was necessary for the greater good.








FURTHER READING : Why does God allow evil and suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/



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[JehovahsWitness]

3.) ... in knowing that it had freewill it would know that it had the capacity to choose to become evil. In this it would know that if it chose to become evil while being worshiped by others the worshipers would be left to follow it (evil) in blind faith.

And what if he never chooses evil? The bible God never chooses evil (and never will chose evil) even though He can, because He loves what is good.





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[JehovahsWitness]

4.) Some wrongs are so bad that there is no amount of compensation that could be given to the victim that would result in justice.

That is simply untrue. If a bad experience is wiped from the victims "memory" and the perpetrator pays for his acts, then justice has been rendered.

It is terrible that it happened but if was permitted for a greater good and there are no lasting negative after effects of the suffering, then it would have been justifiable (See point #2).




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