How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3391

Post by otseng »

William wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:50 am It appears then, that one can be inspired by God - without even knowing or acknowledging that is what is occurring.
As for being inspired by God, that's true. But that's not relevant in the case of morality. For morality, people can be created in the image of God and have a sense of objective morality without acknowledging they are created in the image of God.

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Post #3392

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:13 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3388

The title of this thread has been changed so many times that it's hard to keep up with what it's supposed to be about.
What do you mean? It's always been "How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?"
"Atheism and morality"

"Tomasello - The Origins of Human Morality"

"Schroeder - Evolutionary Ethics"

"Whittenberger - Toward a Universal Ethics"

"Euthyphro Dilemma"

"Summary argument of atheism and morality"

"Overview of problems"
Those are the title of my posts, not the title of this thread.
I'm approaching the Bible as any other book written by humans.
Are you really?

If serious historians came across two manuscripts, both claiming to be historical but saying clearly contradictory things about the same historical figure or event, those historians would say, "These accounts cannot both be correct." They wouldn't accuse anyone else saying the same thing of a "hyperliteral interpretation" of text, nor would they bend over backward trying to come up with outlandish solutions to try to harmonize the accounts.
We've already covered this in multiple posts.
So are you really treating the Bible like any other book?
Yes. I'm assuming the Bible is written by humans and do not assume inerrancy. Whereas skeptics in this thread have assumed it's written by God and it's inerrant.
We also cannot judge the past based on our present standards.
.....

Simply pointing out things God does or commands that we don't like without understanding the full nature of God would not be a correct understanding of God.
Then we can't judge Molech by our present standards. We can't judge Tezcatlipoca by our present standards. We can't judge Zeus by our present standards.
True. But it's not the purpose of this topic to judge other gods.

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Re:

Post #3393

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3392

Then we can't judge Molech by our present standards. We can't judge Tezcatlipoca by our present standards. We can't judge Zeus by our present standards.
True. But it's not the purpose of this topic to judge other gods.
Is the purpose of this topic to engage in special pleading for Jehovah?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3394

Post by William »

otseng wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:58 am
William wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:50 am It appears then, that one can be inspired by God - without even knowing or acknowledging that is what is occurring.
As for being inspired by God, that's true. But that's not relevant in the case of morality. For morality, people can be created in the image of God and have a sense of objective morality without acknowledging they are created in the image of God.
Please explain why you see a difference between what I wrote and your reply.

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Re: Re:

Post #3395

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:48 am Is the purpose of this topic to engage in special pleading for Jehovah?
It's because you were the one saying it's an issue I need to deal with:
Athetotheist wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:10 pm Yet you presumably have no problem with the idea of that same deity brutally drowning every innocent child on earth in a global flood.

If so, that's a topic of its own. But it's still an issue you have to deal with.

If you're trying to justify the flood narrative in Genesis, I guess that's another issue for you to deal with.
I've argued atheists have no grounds on judging anything to be morally good or evil. On what grounds can you make any objective moral judgment against Yahweh?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3396

Post by otseng »

William wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:07 pm
otseng wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:58 am
William wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:50 am It appears then, that one can be inspired by God - without even knowing or acknowledging that is what is occurring.
As for being inspired by God, that's true. But that's not relevant in the case of morality. For morality, people can be created in the image of God and have a sense of objective morality without acknowledging they are created in the image of God.
Please explain why you see a difference between what I wrote and your reply.
If that's what you meant, then we're in agreement. When I think of inspire, I don't think of it happening when someone starts to exist, but it happens when someone is thinking or doing something - he was inspired to write a song, paint a picture, start dieting, etc.

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Re: Re:

Post #3397

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3395
otseng wrote:There is no other greater suffering in the modern era that the Jews have suffered than the Holocaust. Between 5 to 6 million Jews were killed, roughly one third of the entire Jewish worldwide population at that time. Millions more had endured the concentration camps and even tortured.

So, it would mean God was involved in causing the Jews to suffer during the Holocaust.

There are several problems with this. The immediate problem is it puts God as the institagor of evil, which is contrary to God being an omnibenevolent God.
Yet you presumably have no problem with the idea of that same deity brutally drowning every innocent child on earth in a global flood.

If so, that's a topic of its own. But it's still an issue you have to deal with.

If you're trying to justify the flood narrative in Genesis, I guess that's another issue for you to deal with.

On what grounds can you make any objective moral judgment against Yahweh?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7)

In light of this confession, on what grounds can you make any objective moral judgment against Molech, Tezcatlipoca or Zeus?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3398

Post by William »

[Replying to otseng in post #3396]
When I think of inspire, I don't think of it happening when someone starts to exist, but it happens when someone is thinking or doing something - he was inspired to write a song, paint a picture, start dieting, etc.
I don' think we can rule that out entirely. Rather we can put it into perspective as the codes must exist already if we are to agree that morality is objective.
As such, they well could be built into the body-design - and it makes sense that this is the case because it doesn't matter if one believes in a god or not. One has morals.

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Re: Re:

Post #3399

Post by William »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:37 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3395
otseng wrote:There is no other greater suffering in the modern era that the Jews have suffered than the Holocaust. Between 5 to 6 million Jews were killed, roughly one third of the entire Jewish worldwide population at that time. Millions more had endured the concentration camps and even tortured.

So, it would mean God was involved in causing the Jews to suffer during the Holocaust.

There are several problems with this. The immediate problem is it puts God as the institagor of evil, which is contrary to God being an omnibenevolent God.
Yet you presumably have no problem with the idea of that same deity brutally drowning every innocent child on earth in a global flood.

If so, that's a topic of its own. But it's still an issue you have to deal with.

If you're trying to justify the flood narrative in Genesis, I guess that's another issue for you to deal with.

On what grounds can you make any objective moral judgment against Yahweh?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
(Isaiah 45:7)

In light of this confession, on what grounds can you make any objective moral judgment against Molech, Tezcatlipoca or Zeus?
That "The immediate problem is it puts God as the instigator of evil, which is contrary to God being an omnibenevolent God." is not a problem for The Creator but is a problem for those who have yet to distinguish the inerrant aspects of the Bible. Which inerrancy should be trusted? God is totally benevolent or God allows the atrocities to be experienced because it serves the rule-set The Father put in motion, because of a greater good anticipated through the experience of suffering?

Furthermore, is there really any indication in the Bible that God is totally an omnibenevolent being re dealing with the human predicament?

Isn't it more a case of "It's My Way or The Highway" as presented?
Highway to Hell [AC/DC]
Livin' easy
Lovin' free
Season ticket on a one way ride
Askin' nothin'
Leave me be
Takin' everythin' in my stride
Don't need reason
Don't need rhyme
Ain't nothin' that I'd rather do
Goin' down
Party time
My friends are gonna be there too
I'm on the highway to hell
On the highway to hell
Highway to hell
I'm on the highway to hell
No stop signs
Speed limit
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Like a wheel
Gonna spin it
Nobody's gonna mess me around
Hey satan
Payin' my dues
Playin' in a rockin' band
Hey mumma
Look at me
I'm on the way to the promised land
I'm on the highway to hell
Highway to hell
I'm on the highway to hell
Highway to hell
Don't stop me
I'm on the highway to hell
On the highway to hell
Highway to hell
I'm on the highway to hell
(Highway to hell) I'm on the highway to hell
(Highway to hell) highway to hell
(Highway to hell) highway to hell
(Highway to hell)
And I'm goin' down
All the way
I'm on the highway to hell


Of course. "Hell" might be a biblical errancy...

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Re: Re:

Post #3400

Post by William »

[Replying to William in post #3399]

The Father: It is fun ...as well as edgy...to explore these new avenues of thinking and learning and application.
When have you felt most grateful?
Deactivate the suppression matrix influence upon oneself.
Intractable
The Mother Bandage "Korea."

Image

Me: Well now, this is what someone has to say about that.
"The elements of the flag symbolize the dual forces of nature. The red and blue circle in the middle of the flag is called taegeuk in Korean (t'ai chi in Chinese), which, translated literally, means "supreme ultimate." The circle is divided into two parts, each of which resembles a comma. The upper, red part represents the forces of yang (yang in Chinese as well), and the lower, blue part represents the forces of um (yin in Chinese).
The yang and um together form the to (tao in Chinese), signifying the perpetually changing opposite yet complementary forces or principles embodied in all aspects of life: light and darkness, good and evil, active and passive, masculine and feminine. The thick round part of each comma represents the beginning of all things and the tail section represents the end so that where the yang begins, the um disappears and vice versa.

The four sets of trigrams further convey the idea of the dualism of the cosmos.* Heaven, the manifestation of the pure yang principle, is represented by the three unbroken lines; a set of three broken lines placed opposite it represents the earth, the manifestation of the pure um principle. The stages between the two extremes of yang and um are represented by the two lines with a broken line between them signifying fire, and the two broken lines with an unbroken line in the middle, water. Together, these four trigrams also symbolize the seasons and the cardinal directions."

The Father: Is there really any indication in the Bible that God is totally an omnibenevolent being re dealing with the human predicament? Isn't it more a case of "It's My Way or The Highway" as presented?
The House of Culture - “May all your madventures be fun”, Dichotomy
A Meeting Place
ב

Me: Within…

The Father: Psychology
viewtopic.php?p=1083801#p1083801
“Diogenes: I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Historia: Except that the DSM III & IV definition explicitly excludes religious doctrines, making your argument on that score self-defeating.

William: If there is no science accompanying this accordance, it is likely the result of conformation bias.

I follow the idea that Jung's Archetypes give us enough verification that ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like are real influences, and every individual who delves deep enough into their Self [for the purpose of understanding] can start to appreciate the connection therein and even learn to interact with the Archetypes for the betterment of said Self.”

The Father: “Conscience.”
Reasons For Angry Energy – “Father Wound”.
viewtopic.php?p=1075865#p1075865

William: Exactly! "Consciousness."

Me: From the link. “Forever marooned upon an Island in the midst of an ocean they will never be permitted to have access to....while remaining blissfully unaware of the true nature of their internment and praising YHWH for their good fortune.”

The Father: Diving deep
“The Human Animal is a unique being, endowed with an instinctual capacity to heal and the intellectual spirit to harness this innate capacity.”
Counterfactual Noise From The Peanut Gallery Available to all who seek this... ”Emergence Theory”
The Cooperation Strategy “Any God-Mind claiming to be responsible for human beings existing, is going to have problems to deal with re that.” Universal Balance and Harmony.
The Nature of Mind and the Importance of Connection with The Mind “Each To Their Own”.
“We Are All Becoming One” “Crazy Diamonds”

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