How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3501

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello
Do not believe me. Do your own research on these shape-shifting Amalekites, try wiki and you will get this...

"During the 2023 Gaza conflict, Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israelis were "committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world" and added: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember",referencing the Hebrew Bible.Scholars have described the verse as an instance of 'divinely mandated genocide'."


These people are a generic enemy of Judaism and its perceived God. It can be evil, it can be Hamas, it can be atheists ,it can be ???. There is little historical suggestion that they were in fact a non-imaginary thing.
My guess is that all this 'wiping out' was a scriptural effort to erase the pagan origins of Yahweh belief to the extent that it would appear to have never happened that way. Your guess is probably better than mine?
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'

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Re: God hardening Pharaoh's heart

Post #3502

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:10 am A god who can talk to an individual like Noah can talk to any number of individuals. Is anything said to anyone outside of Noah's family? Maybe, "I'm about to destroy the entire world because of your evil, so get yourselves right and save your children"? A one-off delivered in private to a single person seems a pretty sparse warning from a deity who cares so much about his reputation and is capable of far more than that.
This has never been how it works in the Bible where God speaks to everyone, but God speaks to individuals (prophets) and they speak to the people.
As for the babies, I've argued labeling them as innocent is a categorical error.
How convenient. Babies are born without the moral ability to choose innocence, and as soon as they acquire that ability they're automatically sinful and thus guilty. So it seems that there's never a wrong time to slaughter a child, at least when you're a god of perfect justice.
There is not a win-win scenario in all ethical situations, including the flood.
]I argue that wiping out the innocent is reprehensible no matter which deity supposedly commands it or carries it out. You argue that one specific deity should get special treatment. I'd say that my concept of morality weighs more objectively on that scale.
Claiming you have objective morality does not justify it. Now, I'm not disagreeing that your morality might be objective. But the conundrum for skeptics is they want to believe in objective morality, but they cannot justify such a belief. People intuitively believe in objective morality, but only in a theist worldview can there be any justification for it.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3503

Post by otseng »

Masterblaster wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:32 pm My guess is that all this 'wiping out' was a scriptural effort to erase the pagan origins of Yahweh belief to the extent that it would appear to have never happened that way. Your guess is probably better than mine?
The logic has to be consistent. And your theory is not consistent with the Israelites being wiped out by the Assyrians. Whereas nations being wiped out because of sin is consistent, with both the Canaanites and the Israelites.

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Does God love all people equally?

Post #3504

Post by otseng »

Does God love all people equally?

No, I do not believe God loves all people equally. Does he love the Jews more than others? Though I do believe he has placed a special calling on the nation of Israel, I do not believe they are the highest on his list.

What the Bible indicates is there is a special place in God's heart for the disadvantaged and marginalized.

I've already covered God's heart for strangers and foreigners. And included in this, often in the very same passages, is special attention for the poor, widows, orphans, and children.

[Deu 10:18 KJV] 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

[Deu 14:28-29 KJV] 28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay [it] up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

[Deu 27:19 KJV] 19 Cursed [be] he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

[Job 5:15 KJV] 15 But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty.

[Job 29:12 KJV] 12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and [him that had] none to help him.

[Psa 12:5 KJV] 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set [him] in safety [from him that] puffeth at him.

[Psa 34:18 KJV] 18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

[Psa 35:10 KJV] 10 All my bones shall say, LORD, who [is] like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?

[Psa 68:5 KJV] 5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, [is] God in his holy habitation.

[Psa 82:3-4 KJV] 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.

[Psa 113:7-8 KJV] 7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; 8 That he may set [him] with princes, [even] with the princes of his people.

[Psa 140:12 KJV] 12 I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, [and] the right of the poor.

[Psa 146:9 KJV] 9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

[Pro 14:21 KJV] 21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.

[Pro 14:31 KJV] 31 He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

[Pro 22:22-23 KJV] 22 Rob not the poor, because he [is] poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate: 23 For the LORD will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them.

[Pro 31:9 KJV] 9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

[Isa 1:17 KJV] 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

[Isa 3:14-15 KJV] 14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor [is] in your houses. 15 What mean ye [that] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

[Isa 10:1-2 KJV] 1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness [which] they have prescribed; 2 To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and [that] they may rob the fatherless!

[Isa 25:4 KJV] 4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones [is] as a storm [against] the wall.

[Isa 41:17 KJV] 17 [When] the poor and needy seek water, and [there is] none, [and] their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

[Isa 58:6-7 KJV] 6 [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 [Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

[Jer 22:16 KJV] 16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then [it was] well [with him: was] not this to know me? saith the LORD.

[Eze 22:7 KJV] 7 In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

[Zec 7:10 KJV] 10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

[Mal 3:5 NIV] 5 "So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.

[Isa 66:2 KJV] 2 For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

This is in the New Testament as well.

[Mat 5:3 KJV] 3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

[Mat 18:3-4 KJV] 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[Mat 25:35 KJV] 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[Mar 1:40-41 KJV] 40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth [his] hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

[Luk 4:18 KJV] 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

[Luk 6:20-21 KJV] 20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

[Luk 14:12-14 KJV] 12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor [thy] rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

[Luk 16:22 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

[Luk 21:2-3 KJV] 2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. 3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

[1Ti 5:3 KJV] 3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.

[1Jo 3:17 KJV] 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

[Jas 2:5 KJV] 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

[Jas 1:27 KJV] 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3505

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello Otseng

You say - "Does God love all people equally?
No, I do not believe God loves all people equally. Does he love the Jews more than others? Though I do believe he has placed a special calling on the nation of Israel, I do not believe they are the highest on his list.
What the Bible indicates is there is a special place in God's heart for the disadvantaged and marginalized."
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Even under the terms of a Christmas Amnesty, can I let you go unchallenged with this.

You know how God loves people.
God has a heart???
You think he did pick the Israelites.
And he likes poor people more!

Pure 100% speculation.
Why would any of that be true.
Using scripture to support it is not a great modus to achieve credibility.
I wanted to agree with you but I can't.
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3506

Post by otseng »

Masterblaster wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:46 pm Using scripture to support it is not a great modus to achieve credibility.
I wanted to agree with you but I can't.
If people are going to make any claims about what Yahweh is like, the Bible is the only authoritative source, no matter how people would like for God to be like. On what basis do you support your beliefs about Yahweh?

As for God not loving people equally, I was addressing this:
otseng wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 7:08 am
alexxcJRO wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:50 am My point was that a omni-perfect, omniscient being cannot but love all equally or be ignorant to all equally because it does not have reasons to do otherwise and because it knows all, knows this too.
There is nobody claiming God loves everyone equally.

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Re: God hardening Pharaoh's heart

Post #3507

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3502
This has never been how it works in the Bible where God speaks to everyone, but God speaks to individuals (prophets) and they speak to the people.
No, that's never been the way it's worked in the Bible, and that's the problem. Anyone can claim to be a prophet and to speak for God.

People intuitively believe in objective morality, but only in a theist worldview can there be any justification for it.
And I've already clarified that I hold a theist worldview. So my morality, which tells me that wiping out children would be abhorrent whether the rationale be secular or sectarian, is perfectly objective and perfectly justifiable.

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Re: God hardening Pharaoh's heart

Post #3508

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:14 pm [Replying to otseng in post #3502
This has never been how it works in the Bible where God speaks to everyone, but God speaks to individuals (prophets) and they speak to the people.
No, that's never been the way it's worked in the Bible, and that's the problem. Anyone can claim to be a prophet and to speak for God.
Where in the Bible has God spoken directly to everyone?

Yes, anyone can claim to speak for God. But in the case of Noah, what he spoke about the flood was fulfilled, so unless he got really lucky with his guess there'd be a flood, he must've heard it from God.
And I've already clarified that I hold a theist worldview.
I've asked you before what your worldview was and don't recall you ever answering me. Can you point to the post that you answered me?
So my morality, which tells me that wiping out children would be abhorrent whether the rationale be secular or sectarian, is perfectly objective and perfectly justifiable.
So, with your theist worldview, please present your argument that your morality is objective. Or do you agree with mine that I had presented?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3509

Post by Masterblaster »

Hello Otseng

You say-"Yes, anyone can claim to speak for God. But in the case of Noah, what he spoke about the flood was fulfilled, so unless he got really lucky with his guess there'd be a flood, he must've heard it from God."

Can you not see the problem with this theist twaddle. I suggested that you not use scripture as a verification for your beliefs and now you just state the recorded fact instead. If the record is from a Bible verse then that is the same thing. Do you not see this?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3510

Post by otseng »

Masterblaster wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 6:34 amI suggested that you not use scripture as a verification for your beliefs and now you just state the recorded fact instead. If the record is from a Bible verse then that is the same thing. Do you not see this?
I also asked you if I can't use the Bible, then what can I use?

The entire discussion on morality of the Old Testament requires a belief in God and the Bible. It requires a belief in God because that is the only worldview that has objective morality. And it requires a belief in the Bible because the accounts of genocide are recorded in the Bible. If one does not believe in the Bible, then all the accounts in the Bible (including genocide) are all irrelevant.

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