Is God a killer?

[marco]

If creation reflects, in some way, the great mind of God, then what can we say of the spider gifted with a talent to paralyse prey or the tiger endowed with killer force or the herbivore hippo that kills in fits of irritation or the venomous snake whose kiss is fatal?


What mind conceived such dark horrors? Where was the pity for the billion daily victims in the world he has made for his amusement? Surely there is displayed more horror, more brutality than love when even a simple plant can close its jaws on life and render it null.


So should we deduce God is more killer than kind?

[marco]

By age thirteen, he was studying music with Igor Stravinsky whose music included more than one syllable. But yes, he choose to express his genius for a more proletariat crowd.

I am as duly impressed as when I heard a 10-year-old recite pi to 258 places tonight. The 4-year old Capablanca discovered an error in his dad's chess game and Mill the Utilitarian was happily engaged in Latin and Greek at around that age.


But if he's called as a witness for the prosecultion, he will do, as long as he doesn't sing his evidence. I prefer Gregorian chant, which is usually offered by the opposition.

[marco]

Shall I speak to GOD why HE doesn't make it shorter for you?

Please don't - I am negotiating for a reprieve just now and that sort of appeal would prejudice my chances. If I am wrong about the killer stuff, good and well, but I suspect he's rather proud of his reputation for toughness. Best not to bother him on my behalf.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

If creation reflects, in some way, the great mind of God, then what can we say of the spider gifted with a talent to paralyse prey or the tiger endowed with killer force or the herbivore hippo that kills in fits of irritation or the venomous snake whose kiss is fatal?


What mind conceived such dark horrors? Where was the pity for the billion daily victims in the world he has made for his amusement? Surely there is displayed more horror, more brutality than love when even a simple plant can close its jaws on life and render it null.


So should we deduce God is more killer than kind?

Great Q!

As you are aware, I regard The Earth - at least on this local level in relation to critters - specifically human critters - as being a GOD.

Thus, there is clear evidence with the creature -forms and functions that The Earth has Her wild-side, and is indeed 'a killer' and also 'a provider' (the critters survive through killing) so in that sense She is 'feeding on herself' in order to allow for the continuation of life as an ongoing process in this universe.
So life and death are aspects of each other rather than separate from each other.

What mind conceived such dark horrors? The same one in which we are all part of. We are Her. Just in different form and function.

But it isn't all 'dark horrors'. Light and dark together are two aspects of the one thing as well.

It is what it is, and learning NOT to love it unconditionally doesn't help anyone integrate with it by accepting they are actually and unavoidable PART of it, be they non-theist or theist.

It is both horrifying AND exhilarating all at once. I like to think that perhaps, like a fun fair Horror-house/Roller-coaster Ride, in another prior time and space WE (as one being) created it for the purpose of being horrified and exhilarated all at once - only of course, the experience of being a human on the planet Earth is a far more advanced and complex 'fun' ride than any we can so far conceive of and create for ourselves, as mere humans ON the planet.

[William]

[Replying to post 10 by ttruscott]

Shall I speak to GOD why HE doesn't make it shorter for you?

Did you think that in a 'creepy' voice, before writing it down?

[Tcg]

I prefer Gregorian chant, which is usually offered by the opposition.

That's the beauty of art. It comes in as many forms as there are creators. Luckily most of us are able to find some form that speaks to us. Gregorian chant wouldn't be my go-to, but I can appreciate its beauty.


The same is true of wisdom. Some like it served up with all the frills, other's appreciate a more earthy delivery. As long as we find it somewhere. Enjoying this life, which by all appearances is the only one we have, before God or life itself kills us, is an important song no matter who sings it.



Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

So should we deduce God is more killer than kind?

Is God more killer than kind?
viewtopic.php?p=959154#p959154

No I don't believe so. To call God "a killer" implies to me that to kill is God's main desire and motivating force, that he takes pleasure in killing and that taking lives is a desired part of His purpose and design. God can and has killed and indeed the bible identifies Him as "Jehovah of armies" highlighting his having angelic organised forces of spirits at his disposal, but the bible says explicitly that Jehovah takes no pleasure in killing (taking of life prematurely) even of the wicked.

Just as we can see the personality of an artist by observing his work, so I believe we can see the Creator's personality by observing creation, and what we see is not just as much killing as life but rather more life than killing. Eve in the animal kingdom, while animals kill for food or to protect their young (which may well not have been part of Gods original purpose) , they are generally do not kill for pleasure rather most animals will withdraw from confrontation if possible.

I think if God was "more killer than kind" he would have programmed killing into the majority of his creation for his viewing pleasure, however the opposite is true. Most normal humans for example find killing repugnant and the psychopath that takes pleasure in killing is viewed as an anomaly. Normal humans take no pleasure in killing, on the contrary most living creatures and humans in particularly have an extraordinary capacity to love and protect the vulnerable. I think the earth would have been designed quite differently if it's creator was someone who took pleasure and was chiefly motivated by a desire to take life away.


Humans: God's Masterpiece, reflect God's kindness




In think if God was "more killer than kind" we would not have music, or art or beauty or colour, or orgasms or chocolate... or any of the other things that make life pleasurable. I also believe we would not have any atheists because he would simply kill them or indeed anyone that expressed something that displeased Him. But that is not what we observe, not only does he not kill atheists and other sinners but he blesses them with the ability to have children and enjoy his other many gifts to mankind mentioned in this paragraph and sends his Witneses to try and help them to get to know Him through a binle study.

No, I believe we have ample evidence that YHWH as the Creator, while he has standards and will not forever tolerate wickedness, is not motivated by a desire to kill, indeed as a Christian I find the very suggestion that God takes pleasure and is motivated by a sick desire to take life, blasphemous.

"God is love " 1 John 4:8


Can anyone explain what the bible expression "God is love" actually means?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 54#p954754

JW


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[marco]

Enjoying this life, which by all appearances is the only one we have, before God or life itself kills us, is an important song no matter who sings it.

Touché, mon ami. I apologise for my uncalled for hauteur, for indeed I enjoy music morsels from any direction. I recall hearing what may have been: "Eleanor Gee I think you're swell and you really do me well; you're my pride and joy et cetera," and the effect was surprisingly pleasant.


The little Catholic boy in me, Jesuit trained and catechetically dressed, has never deserted the lovely Latin hyms which he then didn't understand, containing perplexities of word power such as cosanostreeleeteesiay, which to ancient Roman ears would be causa nostrae laetitiae (cause of our joy - Our Lady).


God the Killer is perhaps the prayer of a Druid by an oak tree; the echo of the fear of some omnipotent psychopath. However his blustering fury seems to have restricted itself to the villages of the far past, in a land far away. Jesus sweetly tried to give God a better press: calling him daddy was a good try. But actions speak louder than words, even if the words come from Christ.

[marco]

but the bible says explicitly that Jehovah takes no pleasure in killing (taking of life prematurely) even of the wicked.

I am reminded of the Walrus in Lewis Carroll's poem, weeping as he prepares to eat the unfortunate oysters:

'I weep for you,'the Walrus said:
'I deeply sympathize.'
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes."

So too with Jehovah, then.

what we see is not just as much killing as life but rather more life than killing. Even in the animal kingdom, while animals kill for food or to protect their young (which may well not have been part of God's original purpose) , they generally do not kill for pleasure - rather most animals will withdraw from confrontation if possible.

We see what we want to see. If we sip champagne we may see no killing at all; in other parts of creation killing is a daily item. Giving God a "changed purpose" reduces him to unskilled joiner or architect. And the mink will kill as much as it can, apparently just for the sake of it. Who designed it that way?

I think if God was "more killer than kind" he would have programmed killing into the majority of his creation for his viewing pleasure, however the opposite is true.

Well on another page one might be saying we are all sinners. Guessing God is futile. I am looking at creation and wondering what force made the fierce tiger. I can look at the lamb, too, of course before it is eaten. A killer deity need not want all his artefacts to be killers; that he has plenty of victims to view might be enough. But we are guessing.

I think if God was "more killer than kind" we would not have music, or art or beauty or colour, or orgasms or chocolate... or any of the other things that make life pleasurable.

Sometimes the most sadistic thing to do is to give and take away. To encourage love, and then destroy it. To promise a flowery path and devastate it in a tempest.

But that is not what we observe, not only does he not kill atheists and other sinners but he blesses them with the ability to have children and enjoy his other many gifts to mankind mentioned in this paragraph and sends his Witnesses to try and help them to get to know Him through a bible study.

It is knowledge of the Bible God that inspired the OP. Sometimes we create our own purpose and ingeniously give God the credit for our labour. Pardon the Latin phrase but "deus vult", God wills it, was the favourite cry of many a Pontiff, justifying cruelty. Man puts words in God's mouth and God says nothing.

However, I do not malign a system that seeks to bring comfort, that promises happiness and looks beyond what is often life's dark veil to see some mystic light. The greatest works of art do that too. Go well.

[marco]

As you are aware, I regard The Earth - at least on this local level in relation to critters - specifically human critters - as being a GOD.

Yes, and perhaps Einstein had the same idea.

But it isn't all 'dark horrors'. Light and dark together are two aspects of the one thing as well.

It is what it is, and learning NOT to love it unconditionally doesn't help anyone integrate with it by accepting they are actually and unavoidable PART of it, be they non-theist or theist.

It is both horrifying AND exhilarating all at once.

I can understand that perception of life. It is a nice idea that we sometimes subject ourselves, at a funfair, to frightening extremities in order to feel the intensity of life. Perhaps that is why moutaineers incomprehensibly struggle against terror to stand on a peak.

Christians of course enjoy the hug of a caring, living God; one ready to forgive, understand, comfort. There have been moments in my adult existence where just a shiver of this concept percolated the Aristotles, Caravaggios, Newtons, Brownings and Dostoyevskys buried in the sepulchre of my soul, almost causing a resurrection.

[1213]

You're simply arguing that God is a killer based on incompetence, his inability to maintain the good you claim he created. Whether God is a killer based on his ineptitude, or his direct intention, he is a killer.

I think only those who kill, can be called killers, not those who may have made it possible. Or what do you think, should gun manufacturers be held guilty for all murders that are done by their guns? I think it would not be fair.

Also, people wanted to know evil, that is why God allowed this lesson, where evil is possible. Luckily nothing of this world can destroy soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

But have I understood correctly, you think killing animals and plants is wrong?