The most damaging verse in the bible?

[AquinasForGod]

Question for debate: What do you think is the most damaging verse in the bible?

I mean, what verse or verses together (like maybe a contradiction) do you feel is the most damaging to the Christian faith, that might make a Christian go, hmm, maybe I have the wrong religion.

I have been searching the threads here and so far, I have found no points made against the bible that I find troubling or difficult to give an answer for.

I suppose some would be troubled if they think God wrote the bible himself or something, but why would anyone believe that?

[JehovahsWitness]

And did killing "everyone" on Earth permanently eliminate sinners?

WAS THE FLOOD MEANT TO PERMANENTLY ELIMINATE SINNERS FROM THE EARTH?

There is absolutely no statement in scripture that states the flood was to {quote} "permanently eliminate sinners" {end quote}. This is a strawman argument based on an unbiblical assumption.

The biblical narrative is clear ; all human descendents of Adam (including Noah) are born "sinners"* and only the ransom sacrifice of Christ can save humanity from the inevitability of sinfulness resurging amongst them no matter what preventive action is taken.

* born with a inherited leaning to sin which inevitably leads to sinful action.


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[JehovahsWitness]

...the god of the Bible seems fine with pointless violence [1], rape [2], murder [3], and slavery [4].

[1] VIOLENCE

• Is God violent ?
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[2] RAPE

• Does the bible command or endorse RAPE?
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[3] MURDER

• QUESTION: Did the Mosaic law prohibit killing or murder?
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[4] SLAVERY

• What is God's attitude to slavery?
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... We are left with a war god turned savior ...

• Should YHWH be described as a "god of war"?
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..the flood story and poor Uzzah who tried to steady the ark come to mind.

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GOD, "BAD" GOD and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[help3434]

Romans 9 15-22 portrays God in a worse light than any other passage than I can think of:

15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,1 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

So yeah, your agency means nothing. Those that are damned are damned just because God chose them to be, and who are you to question that, you piece of clay? I find this to be repugnant in the extreme, but there is a whole school of theology called Calvinism based on this.

[JehovahsWitness]

Romans 9 15-22 portrays God in a worse light than any other passage than I can think of:

15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,1 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

....Those that are damned are damned just because God chose them to be, and who are you to question that, you piece of clay? I find this to be repugnant in the extreme, but their is a whole school of theology called Calvinism based on this.

That is one interpretation ; others, myself included, understand the words differently, in a way that has nothing negative in it at all. It is nave to conclude that something is correct just because Calvinism says so.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Most of all that is easily explained when you realize the books they are found within are not historical books. The writer wasn't trying to write history, such as Noah's flood. Also, the writer wasn't acting like an eye-witness such as the gospels.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
....................................................................................................................................Isaiah 45:7

First, I would point out that Isaiah is not writing down law or doctrines. Actually, we don't even know if Isaiah wrote this, but nonetheless, we should look at what it does say because he says thus says the Lord.

I actually learned the following from a Rabbi. What is being juxtaposed here is I form the light and create darkness with I make peace and create evil.

There is a problem here. Darkness is seen as the opposite of light, but the opposite of peace is not evil but war. And so we get translations like

Isaiah 45:7 (NAS) The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

However, Aquinas would be fine with it saying God makes evil. Not create but makes. The reason why is because he says evil is not a thing in the world, but the absence of the good, just as darkness is the absence of light.

Or like holes in a wall is not a thing in the world but the absence of a thing, i.e. parts of the wall.

And because it was good that freewill beings exist, God created them. But because no creation can be perfect, those freewill beings will bring evil into the world. So in this sense God made evil.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives."

All scripture being given by God doesn't mean it is all literal. We know for a fact it cannot be because it says so, like Jesus spoke in parables.

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."

Every word God himself speaks is true, but that is not the bible. If God says something to you, if you apprehend God's word in your mind, do not add to it or take away from it. If you share it to others share exactly what God revealed to you.
Also, it is clear the bible is not the very Word of God because it says things like, and king Achaz said such and such, or Paul says and now this is I that speak and not the Lord.

[help3434]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

So what is your interpretation?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

So what is your interpretation?

Romans 9 15-22 : Quite simply that nothing can stop Gods mercy and compassion towards those that deserve it ; just as nothing can stop the adverse judgement of those that choose wickedness.



JW



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FREE WILL, SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ... RESPONSIBILITY

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to wannabe in post #3]

Smart man, going to the NT. I like that.

There are differences between the two genealogies but they are explained. Catholics point out that these are both the lines of Jospeh, not of Mary.

There are two places where they seem to differ. David through Nathan or Solomon. The answer is both. A person can be a decedent of both sons

These two bloodlines met up again in Shealtiel, which we see in the text.

Then we see another difference.

Matthew traces Christs lineage through Zerubbabels son Abiud, while Luke traces it through a different son, Rhesa. Again, this is not odd. Zerubbabel simply had more than one son, and Christ was descended from both.

The two lines converge once more in Jesus foster father, Joseph. In Matthew, Joseph is said to be the son of Jacob, of the Abiud line, while in Luke Joseph is said to be the son of Heli, of the Rhesa line. So why is Joseph said to have two fathers?

This would have been through Adoption.

For the full answer please read this from Catholic.com - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -of-christ

[help3434]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

So what is your interpretation?

Romans 9 15-22 : Quite simply that nothing can stop Gods mercy and compassion towards those that deserve it ; just as nothing can stop the adverse judgement of those that choose wickedess.

But it says that God chose some vessels to be dishonorable. So if people chose wickedness it is because God made them in such a way that they would choose that.

[AquinasForGod]

Question for debate: What do you think is the most damaging verse in the bible?

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Considering Christians believe the Bible, we'd be hard pressed to present a bit of it that'd wreck their belief.

I suggest using a science book, or one all about logic.

Yet there are Christians that lost their faith because of arguments about the bible.

I am game to get into logic if you wish. If you think you have some logical argument against Christianity, I will look at it and see if it holds up.